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Oct 8
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    • #24 – Jen Elizabeth

    #24 - Jen Elizabeth

    #24: Jen Elizabeth has dedicated her second chance at life to addiction recovery and healing from childhood traumas. She is a recognized writer, speaker, and recovery activist living in Southern California. She shares her story, the wreckage and the reckoning, as a way to keep the light on for anyone who is suffering under the darkness of shame and silence.

    Ashley sits down with Jen in this interview to discuss the myriad of inter-generational traumas that she has faced, including mental health issues, addiction, eating disorders and molestation at an early age.

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    Episode Notes

    2:30 – Jen’s book – “Shape of a Woman” + the other books that are in the process of being written

    3:55 – Revisiting the wounds in her childhood when speaking about her experiences with her own children

    4:45 – Speaking about her family and the background with her mother’s mental illness

    6:10 – “Why doesn’t she want to live for me?”

    7:08 – Explaining the diseases of Munchausen and Munchausen by Proxy

    10:50 – Referencing the TV show “Sharp Objects” to help understand Munchausen and Munchausen by Proxy

    12:45 – Referencing the Netflix movie “Mommy Dead and Dearest” about the story of Gypsy Rose and her mother who was diagnosed with Munchausen by Proxy

    14:03 – Moving to Mobile, Alabama to join a cult with her family as a young child

    16:55 – Talking about when the molestation happened and how it escalated

    23:07 – Having to work through the feeling of participation in her sexual molestation

    24:07 – Referencing the started documentary “The Flock” about the cult she was in (the documentary never aired)

    24:45 – The man that secretly was rescuing families from the situation

    25:15 – Coming back to California at age 9

    27:19 – Telling her parents about the molestation that happened in the cult

    32:49 – The present family dynamic

    34:33 – “Alcohol and drugs did save me” – the moment she became an alcoholic

    36:35 – The first time Jen picked up heroin

    37:53 – Jen’s eating disorder, mimicked by what she saw in her own mother

    41:20 – The complications of prison + addiction

    43:30 – Her boyfriend’s murder

    48:55 – Jen’s moment of change – a divine intervention – and her clean date

    51:30 – Struggling through the beginnings of sobriety

    52:38 – Starting to “do the work” in her recovery

    55:00 – Getting pregnant with her first child and how she started to love herself as a woman

    1:01:10 – The fear she started facing as a mother

    1:16:31 – “If you’re searching for a way out, you’ll always find a way out”

    1:17:44 – Talking about being a member of 12-step programs along with other ways Jen maintains her recovery

    1:24:55 – Shape of a Woman – the birth or her book

    Connect with Jen

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    The Courage to Change: A Recovery Podcast would like to thank our sponsor, Lionrock Recovery, for their support. Lionrock Recovery is an online substance abuse counseling program where you can get help for drinking or drug use from the privacy of your own home. For more information, visit http://www.lionrockrecovery.com.

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    Episode Transcript

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Hello beautiful people. Welcome to the Courage to Change: A Recovery Podcast. My name is Ashley Loeb Blassingame, and I am your host. Today, we have Jen Elizabeth on. Jen has dedicated her second change at life to addiction recovery and healing from childhood traumas. She’s a recognized writer, speaker and recovery activist, living in Southern California. She shares her story, The Wreckage and The Reckoning, as a way to keep the light on for anyone who is suffering under the darkness of shame in silence.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    She grew up in a home with a mentally ill mother, who had bipolar Munchausen and Munchausen by proxy. She was also born in Santa Barbara and moved to Mobile Alabama with her family when they joined a cult. At five years old, she was molested by the main leader of the cult as a rite of passage for her family. She didn’t tell anyone. And that lasted until she was nine years old, and they moved back to California.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Jen also struggled with an eating disorder that would take different forms. Bulimia and anorexia. Jen wrote and released her book, Shape of a Woman, in January 2019, where she shares the deepest and most raw parts of her story from childhood to addiction, and now recovery. She’s the mother of two beautiful children, and has turned life around with eight years of sobriety. Her story is amazing. She’s done a lot of really cool work. And I’m so grateful that she joined us, and her toddler daughter joined us and was super quiet and well behaved the whole time. And if you’ve ever been around any toddlers, you know that that is quite a fete. So amazing on all counts. I hope you enjoy this wonderful, wonderful woman. Check her out on social media, resurrektion_of_me, and her book, Shape of a Woman on Amazon, by Jen Elizabeth. All right, episode 24. Let’s do this.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Jen, thank you so much for being here.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Thank you for having me.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Absolutely. So you have a book out, Shape of a Woman by Jen Elizabeth. And when did you write this book?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    I wrote it about a year ago. It took me about six months to write. But I’m a writer anyways. So I had a lot of journaling. And there’s actually four more books coming.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Oh, wow!

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Are they all written?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    No, gosh. I’m just sources of the second one. But the first book is very much a generalized just kind of … Just my basic touches on my life story. But then the following books will be specifically designated one to my addiction, one to being a survivor of child sexual abuse, one towards the mother realm. And then one towards I think being a mother today. Yeah. That’s the plan.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    That’s the plan. Okay, yeah. And we all know how plans go.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    And so you are clean and sober eight years.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah. A little over eight years, yeah.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    That is wild given everything that you’ve been through.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah, miracles.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    That’s awesome. It’s awesome. And you have two young children?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah, I do. I have a six year old and a two year old.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Wow! So revisiting this stuff, there must be a lot of putting yourself in those shoes of what it was like to be a young child. For me, when I became a parent and started to talk about what happened, I started to realize how young I really was. Did any of that happen for you?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Oh, yeah. I mean, I look … So much. My son is six. And I started getting molested around four and a half, five. And so I just look at my son, and I just I can see myself.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    That’s crazy, right?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And it’s just like I never felt that young, because I was put in so many adult situations from my family to that. But yeah. It makes me sick.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah. It just definitely brought a new perspective for me. That was definitely my take away. You grew up in a home with a mentally ill mother who had bipolar munchausen and munchausen by proxy?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Okay. So tell us about that. That’s no small story there.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    It’s hard for people to understand because I get a lot of, “But she’s your mother. They’re your family. You only get one family.” And I understand all that. I really do. And I understand that it’s hard for someone to grasp the concept that not all mothers are capable of loving their children. But it is true. Not all mothers are capable.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And so I happened to be born to one. She was always trying to kill herself, and more so for attention because that’s part of the munchausen. It’s doing things to harm yourself and harm your children to get the attention that you are craving. It’s not so much truly wanting to kill yourself. She always said it when I was home. And she may be very loud about it. And I would have to beg her, because at that time, I was little. And I thought every single time was really.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And I would search the streets with the police looking for my mommy. And inside my brain just think, “Why doesn’t she want to live for me?” And I would beg her. And it never worked. And she would moke me, and say I’m too emotional, and I just need to let it go, and all this stuff.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And so I learned really young. That bared so heavily on my self-worth. I was starving for acceptance and love. And I just never got it. And my dad, he’s just the typical codependent, enabler. It’s just such a mess.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    And where did you guys grow up?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    I was born in Santa Barbara. But when I was two and half is when we joined the cult. And so they moved us all to Alabama.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Okay. Let’s back up just a tiny bit. Can you talk about … I’ve told my story, so I know how this is. It’s like, “Oh, my God! That was a lot in 10 seconds.”

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Sorry.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    No, no. I’m used to it. It’s good. I don’t know that a lot of people know what munchausen is. So I think that is something just to touch on. And so a little bit about what it is, maybe some examples of what that look like, and then how you discovered, how you came to the realization that that’s what was going on.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Munchausen and munchausen by proxy, it is a very difficult diagnosis to come to. And it’s not widely understood. And it took a long time, and a lot of years, and a lot of doctors to finally figure out that’s what it was. What it is is the people that you see on the news that are on the surveillance cameras that are smothering the baby, and as soon as all the medical staff run in, they let the pillow go, and then they’re the savior. Or those moms that put toenail clippings in children’s rooms to give infection.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    It’s like this desire to … They need that attention. It’s like their identity. My mom does it to herself, which is munchausen. And munchausen by proxy is to a child. Now, I have a younger brother. And he’s two and a half years younger. And he’s more her victim in that sense. He still lives there, in that house, and he’s 40.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Oh, my gosh!

    Jen Elizabeth:

    But I’m talking if he were a child today, she would be in jail, because it’s criminal behavior. It’s not her fault. She is ill. She does have mental health issues. But it is what it is. But here’s an adult, so there’s that.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    But she would always be in a hospital having surgery she didn’t need. Doctors would be throwing their hands in the air like not sure was pain is coming. She also was an opioid addict, which just … It’s like the cycle. I don’t know which came first. Who knows? I mean, it’s so twisted that I don’t even know. I do know that when she was a teenager, she was suicidal and locked herself in the apartment, and all these fiascos. Always fiascos. And always wanting attention.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And so I think the opioid addiction happened as a result of-

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    The surgeries and stuff?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    The surgeries, and depression. And she’s tortured inside. I love my mom. And I wish that she could find healing. But I can’t hold on to that forever, because her behavior is abusive. And I no longer will tolerate it. And I have children that do not need to see it. So unfortunately that’s the way it is.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    With the munchausen by proxy with your brother … So munchausen you are harming yourself, I think. You are constantly-

    Jen Elizabeth:

    In the hospitals.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    In the hospitals.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Surgery.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah. And a lot of the time actually, which I’m sure you know interestingly, people who have munchausen eventually they become legitimately sick.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    So my mom is legitimately sick now.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yes.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    She’s bedridden with a multitude of for real illnesses, yeah.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah. Eventually, they do become incredibly, incredibly, legitimately ill. But it doesn’t start off that way. But munchausen by proxy is a new level that there’s a really great … Great being an interesting word to use. But great depiction of munchausen by proxy in the TV show Sharp Objects that just came out, if anybody is curious. That’s a good understanding about more about it. But with you, what did that look like in terms of her doing things?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    My brother?

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah. And she didn’t do it to you at all?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    I don’t remember. I think once my brother was born, she dropped me like a hot cake and it went to him. My brother is also mentally ill. I hate just the word mentally ill. Has mental health issues, bipolar and borderline. I think my brother is extremely traumatizes. That’s why he’s really depressed.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    But she always had him in the doctors. She swore he had seizures. And I never saw a seizure. She had him lots of medicine. She’s never encouraged him to do anything. Would stay home with her. She used to have him sleep in her bed when he was in his 20s, bizarre stuff.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    I think my mom prefers to use herself as far as … Like for instance, she would seizures on the right side, right? I mean, she would drop down [inaudible 00:12:04] and have these horrible seizures, scared me half to death.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Well, a few years later, this neurologist said that she has a little spot on her right side, which means that it should affect her left side. And it blew everything in my whole family out of the water. It’s like nobody wants to accept that all this stuff is part of her mental health. It’s not all the …

    Jen Elizabeth:

    You can’t grasp that, because then it’s like, “Oh, my God! Look at everything that we’ve been through. In and out of hospitals, thinking she’s dying and all this stuff. And then you’re telling me that it’s all a lie?”

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Right.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    It’s mind blowing, absolutely. There’s another good Netflix special about that girl. I think she end up killing her mom. There’s a Netflix movies, it’s a true story documentary. But I don’t know if she end up killing the mom. I thought she did.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Our producer is looking it up. Our producer is looking it up.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Okay. That’s an excellent. And I have not seen the full thing yet. But I do know the story, where she was severely abused by her mother who had munchausen by proxy. And then I think her and her boyfriend may have ended up murdering the mother. Yeah. You guys look it up.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    We’ll look it up.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    I think it’s named after the daughter of the mom. I’m going to check.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I mean, that doesn’t … That makes sense.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah. Sure.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I mean, it definitely checks.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Oh! For sure, yeah. I mean, I-

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    It’s called Mommy Dead and Dearest.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    There you go. That’s it.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Oh, yeah. Oh! What a great … So the director is Erin Lee Carr, who is an amazing documentarian.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    That is an excellent … I followed that story in real time. And I have not seen that documentary itself yet. But I heard it’s amazing. That’s exactly what it is.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Okay. That’s great. This is a great. So anybody who is interested. So you moved Mobile, Alabama from Santa Barbara. So not only did you join a cult, which we’ll talk about, but you also moved from … A culture shock. I mean, is there a bit of culture shock from Santa Barbara? Maybe New York City to Mobile?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Maybe.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Maybe?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah. It’s a pretty knurly move.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    How old were you when you left?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    I was two and a half when all the families gathered together. We all left all of our friends and families. We weren’t allowed to speak to our families, our natural families. And we all went across, and traveled across. 35 families, I think it was, that we went.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Oh, my gosh!

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And we all traveled across to Mobile, Alabama. Yeah. Good times.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    What was the name of the cult?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    It was called Gold Coast … It started off called Gold Coast Christian Covenant or something like that. And it was basically a church, a fanatical church. But my parents thought they were joining a church that was supposed to … They wanted to raise their families in a more wholesome, less worldly environment. Yeah.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Everybody ate in the same color. We all went to the same school. We all hang out at the … Everything was all the same. But as the years goes on, which happens in so much organized crime and cults, and stuff like that, things get more and more disgusting, and more and more control. And there was financial abuse, spiritual abuse, and obviously sexual abuse.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    So the cult leader, how did your parents find out about this movement?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah. I think they were already going to churches. And I think somebody … I don’t really know. Some friend of theirs must’ve … There was a group of men that ended up traveling over there to meet some of these people.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    To check it out? Okay.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And they came back and said how freaking wonderful it is. And there’s like this big Christian movement, and we all got to go there. God’s there.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Right. God’s in Mobile.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    God’s in Mobile, Alabama.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Obviously. So you go down there. You’re how old at the time when you make the move?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Two and half. Well, I mean, I don’t-

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Two and a half?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Maybe I was three, because my brother was just born.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Okay. And then you get down there, and you said it starts out normal, nothing remarkable rather than the culture shift.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Nothing remarkable, other than the culture shift, yeah.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    When do you start to notice, hey! Something’s not right here?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    It took me a long time to notice something wasn’t right. But when did I actually begin being molested? That’s a whole different question.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Okay. So when did-

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Okay. Because I really thought that-

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    In retrospect, when did things go south?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    In retrospect?

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yes.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    In retrospect, I think I was probably about seven when the experiences with him became more graphic and more uncomfortable.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    So let’s talk about that. Who’s the leader?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    It was an elder.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Okay. So there was several elders.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Several elders. It was one of the elders. And the thing is that part of it was that know which children are safer.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Of course.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And I came from a broken home. I came from a home of complete chaos. And that church knew so when about every family that they actually had folders of each family, with personal information per family. My dad even had to discuss what type of sex he had with my mom with his particular shepherd. Everyone had a certain shepherd above them. So they knew everything.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    They knew everything, right.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Number one, my dad was poor. We moved to Mobile, Alabama. My dad was in construction, and it rains there all the time. So financially we were under the thumb. My dad never moved up in the ranks as far in the shepherding movement. So he stayed at the bottom of the totem pole.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    My mother was an absolute wreck. So I was a perfect target. It all makes sense to me now as I’m older that I remember one of the things that was required of the church … And I’m putting quotations up, because it was not a church. It was a documented cult. And it was disbanded as a documented cult, just so everybody knows.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Okay.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    This is not church behavior, or not appropriate church. This is cult behavior. One thing was you had to tithe 10% of your income to the church every week. And so my dad could not afford that. And I don’t know … My dad is very weird about talking about all of it. And we actually were a part of a documentary several years that never ended up finishing.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    But a boy that I did grow up with, he started making a documentary about this movement. And so I do know a little information from that. But I know that my dad could not afford it. I don’t know if we were being threatened to be excommunicated. Here we’re isolated, segregated. We don’t talk to our family hardly, we’d have no more friends besides those friends.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And it’s so much abuse. And so I remember … I don’t remember exactly when, I don’t remember exactly every single time. But I do remember being called into this little office, and sitting on his lap. And memorizing bible verses, because we all had to memorize bible verses.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And he would play with my hair, and sing me songs. And I was starving for love. I was starving for someone to tell me I was good. And so I didn’t think anything of it, and he never told me not to say anything that I remember. But I never did.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Somehow, in therapy, years down the road, I realized that even as a four, five, six year old little girl, I knew that I would not be protected or believed. And so I just somehow put all of that together on my own. And that why I say I never really felt like a little kid. There was so much adult (beep) in my head already.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    But over time, the playing with my hair and stuff like that turned into much more graphic stuff. And he put his mouth on me. I had to put my mouth on him. I think internalized that, and thought that I ate people. And all these weird things made me feel dirty, and made me feel …

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And I say thing when I speak. It wasn’t so much the secrets that I kept. It was in the keeping of the secrets that destroyed me over time. It was that I swallowed everything I was worthy of saying, of feeling. I disowned myself. I abandoned my body to him for the sake of affection, for the sake of survival.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Right. But the thing that’s important to note about that, and I’m sure you’ve worked through a lot of this, but there is research out there that talks about the more times a child is hugged and loved, the faster their brain grows. So they’ve done research, and there’s actually been not on purpose research. They’ve researched situations where children who are born completely healthy, intact, but were completely neglected. I mean, not touched, not talked to, and they are mute. And there’s nothing wrong with them. But that is a human need.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I mean, Maslow’s hierarchy of needs in terms of shelter, food, water. I think that that, as a young child, that affection and love and someone talking to you and those things they are in that hierarchy of needs. So in some ways, I think that when I’ve heard this story before, this type of story where a child is totally out on their own and not getting what they need, and then they feel guilty because they got what they need from this sexual predator. I mean, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard that.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    And the reality is it’s so confusing, because you actually really … I know a story of someone who was starving, literally the family didn’t have food. And he would go next door, and the neighbor would feed him, and then molest him. And it was like, well, you as a child know that you need something. And you make this trade. And you don’t really understand it. And then the comprehension comes in. And that’s when all the … But deep down, it feels dirty and wrong.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah, right? Totally. I think too you don’t say anything. And then it shifts into a feeling of participation.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Right. Totally. Like what did I do?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah. That is actually the last hang up, if you want to call it that, that I had to release. It’s that feeling of participation, because I never said anything. I never fought him off. There is moments where it is somewhat … I don’t want to say the word pleasurable. But it’s not horrible. Now it’s a happy experience, because you get … Like you said. And I was so young.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    But, yeah. The whole not saying anything and never making a stink about it, people assume that, “Oh! Someone tries to touch my kid, they’re going to scream and run.” Well, let’s be real. It doesn’t really happen.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    And the situations are almost always incredibly complex. They’re someone who seems safe.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Totally.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    You are looking at it from an adult comprehension. It’s not the same.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah. That went on till a man came around, and started … I know this is from that documentary. The documentary was called The Flock. And he started it on Kickstarter or something. I’m not sure what ended up happening. But I do know he ran into so many walls when he went back to Alabama. So many people did not want to talk to him. So it was very psychologically controlled. And so I think there’s a lot of people that did not want to share their story, which is understandable. Maybe that’s why he didn’t complete it.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    But there was a man that came around that started trying to secretly rescue families from the situation. And so I think I gave my dad a little clue that maybe this was wrong. My mom never wanted to leave. My mom loved that church. And she still loves that church.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    To this day?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    To this day. But my dad, he wanted out. And so I remember we were one day there, and then the next day we packed up. Nobody was there to say goodbye to us. I never got to say goodbye to my friends. We were just gone.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Where did you go?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Back to California. We came back to California to my dad’s parents. We had to stay there for a little bit, I remember, when I was nine. And who knows what would’ve happened. I might have ended up even more screwed up. My gosh! I’m so glad we left.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    How old were you when you left?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Nine.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Nine, okay.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Nine and a half, yeah.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Okay. So you were pretty aware. And so that’s how the abuse stopped, because you left?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Did you know of anyone else who was experiencing that? I mean, we can assume but …

    Jen Elizabeth:

    I think I saw another girl I know, one time. But I can’t be sure. And it’s something that I know how much it has shaped the way that my life went. And so I hesitated. I have not prosecuted this person either. And I did, a few years ago, I did look into it. And the answer I got from the lawyer …

    Jen Elizabeth:

    I mean, this is the kind of thing that makes so hard to report when it’s been so many years with that. He literally told me, “It has been so many years. And with your past, you have no foot to stand on in court, I’m just going to tell you right now.” Because they’re just going to drag me through the mud because of my addiction, and all my legal problems.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And so some people gave me a hard time about that, “Well, you should do it anyways,” and all that stuff. And I always say thing, number one, that’s shaming a victim. That’s continuing to shame me by telling me how I should handle it. And number two, I own the end to the story now.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    So I can change the way it ends any time I want. As for now, I’m okay. As for now, I feel the story is out. And some of the people from that church, and most of them have a bad taste in their mouth about that whole situation, they support me. And they of course say they were unaware.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And I don’t know if they were. My dad was … But we can get into that. But when I did tell my parents, I was 26 years old. And I called them on the phone from a jail. I was in a jail, an in custom drug program. And it was the first time I’d ever cried. I had to watch a documentary about child sexual abuse. It was part of the program.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And I watched this girl. And I felt heat from my body. And I was shaking like a leaf. And the first tears from a little girl just came. And I thought that I might die right there. It just all hit me that it’s real. That I can’t shove it down. I can’t try and paint a different picture. It’s not. I did feel it was my fault. But it wasn’t like I didn’t want it. And I called my dad, and the first words out of my dad’s mouth was, “I thought something like that was going on.”

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Now, how did that make you feel?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    At the moment, I was going through so much that I just kind of blew over my head. I knew it sounded odd.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    You were like yeah, it registered, but didn’t.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah. And that wasn’t my clean date or anything. So it was way longer. But as I’ve been going through this journey of healing, that statement, especially now that I have children, that’s horrible, because my didn’t want to make a scene. He didn’t want to cause any conflict, even to the point of being under suspicion possibly that his daughter’s being inappropriately touched or whatever. To just kind of shove that aside.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    You know what? And what comes up for about that, the amount of mental illness that you describe in your mom … And again, this is Monday morning quarterbacking over here. But what comes up for me is, I don’t know if you’re familiar with intergenerational trauma?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Oh, yeah.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    That’s a stupid question. Of course you are. But what comes up for me is the level of mental illness that your mom had, and then passed down, and then your dad marrying your mom, all I can think is … And your mom wanting … So having the bipolar, which that is more chemical, which he’s definitely, right?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Right.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    But definitely with the munchausen and the munchausen by proxy, the need for attention, the starvation for attention, and then your dad marrying someone of that nature, what comes up for me is there were generations of people in your family who did not know how to protect one another, and give one another what they needed at the time. And again, I have no idea what that looks like. But I’m just thinking like when you paint this whole picture of trapped in the cult, this will save our problem, away from the family, the whole thing.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    And he’s like, “I thought something like that was going on.” I think this is someone who didn’t have the tools to … And not in defense of him. Just taking a snapshot of this family. And that’s why you were chosen in that, because it was apparently clear that the parents had no tools.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Absolutely. For sure. I mean, we can go on and on about my dad’s family. It definitely didn’t start with them.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Well, that’s the value of all the amazing work that you’ve done, right? Is that because you picked up the pen, and you are saying, “I get to finish how the story ends, and that trauma stops with the trauma work in the releasing of the secrets,” and all of the things that you’ve done is so that you are the last generation that has to go through all of that.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And people tell me, and I always think about, “Okay, well, my children.” But the big picture is it’s my children’s children, and their children. And it’s like I don’t realize how freaking … It’s so epic what is happening. For me, it just feels like I’m just … I just want to protect my … I don’t want my children to suffer the way I suffered. And I no longer feel I am worthy of suffering either, that I’m worthless, and all that.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    So I’m just healing myself. But the bigger picture really is is that my children are going to grow to be more healthy. And God, I pray that the whole generational of just abuse and … I mean, my poor family. And when I say this, my mom, my dad, the way they’ve existed their entire lives up to now is so heartbreaking.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Right. Totally.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And they look at me like they’re not too thrilled with me. I mean-

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I don’t mean to laugh. But, I mean, yeah. I would imagine.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    On one end, I’m grateful that they’re so trapped in their own illnesses, because they really don’t branch out much to see how much I’m out there.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    They don’t know how bad it really is?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    They don’t know how bad it really is. And they’re always so medicated. I have told my mother about my book. I don’t think she remembers. And she did ask was she in it? And I said yes. And she said, “Oh, oh!” But then, it never got brought up again. So I don’t think they know. They’re just so engulfed in their own misery.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah. That’s hard.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    But it’s a blessing for me, because if they were out and had … They do have Facebook, but I don’t think they … But if they were savvy to all this stuff, yeah, it might be a bigger mess. I wrote my book under my middle name for that reason, because although I mention no names in my book, and I still don’t mention names in any single podcast I do. I’m not about shaming anybody else. I’m about releasing my shame.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    So I don’t mention names in the book. But I did not use my last name specifically in case somebody wanted to come back and try to send her some ridiculousness. I’m covering my bet.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I mean, it happens.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Oh, yeah.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    So you start drinking and using Vicodin to numb the pain?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Mm-hmm (affirmative).

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Because it works really well.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    It works really well.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    No, it doesn’t. But it does, in the beginning.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    It saved me. And I believe this, that alcohol and drugs did save me. I was close to possibly trying to kill myself. I would lay in bed at night, as a little girl, and just squeeze my skin. I remember I squeezed it so hard, and hoped that magically it would come off and I would be somebody else. I was so tortured inside.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And so when I was 12, I found a bottle of vodka. And I was an alcoholic from that first moment, because … And I share the story that before that little glass was halfway finished, I was already skimming in my mind of how I was going to get more and drink every day. It was the first peace I’d ever known.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah, I’m sure. And I totally relate to that word. Just like I think back to the behaviors. I’m sure you’d relate to this. But for me, alcoholism and drug addiction was a long list of behaviors. And had I not done that, I could not have survived in my skin. I would not. There was no continuing to live in the pain that I was living in. And that prolonged my life to a point where I could get sober and stay alive.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    For sure, absolutely.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    So you were addicted to heroin and meth, that’s where that led?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    How old were you when you first started doing heavier drugs, heroin and meth?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    I think I was, let’s see, maybe 22. I was pretty hooked on oxycodone and stuff. And I was so sick, dope sick. I was out of pills. And if anyone has ever been through that, they know it’s indescribable. And I was desperate. And a guy said that he had his friend coming over. And I thought they were going to bring pills. So I was thinking, “Thank God. I’m so sick.” And the guy showed up with heroin and a needle. And at hat point, you’re so desperate. And I didn’t give a (beep).

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    It doesn’t even seem that scary at that point. It really doesn’t.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    At that point, I’m like, “Please help me.” I am in bad shape. And from that moment on, I was addicted to … I was a heavy heroin user. I added to the spoon. I did both together. I was addicted to the needle as well, which is something not a lot of people talk about. But absolutely addicted to the needle, and for about 15 years. Yeah.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    I don’t know how I lived. Sometimes I think that the meth must’ve saved me from … I don’t know. I don’t know how I didn’t OD a million, million, million times. I don’t if the meth, or the combination, or something.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I mean, it’s a different landscape out there now too. That’s part of it. When I was using and when you were using, I just don’t think it happened quite as much as it does now, which is so terrifying. So you talk about, in your book, your mom. One of the thing that went on was she had a serious, serious, eating disorder. Would starve herself, and that you picked up on that, and would cycle through different eating disorder behavior. Were you doing restricting or binging and purging before the drugs? And did meth solve your problem in any ways, or what did that look like?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    I was definitely doing the starving. And I would chew my food up and spit out before I swallowed when I was around eight. And when I found-

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    So that control.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    It was the control. I was so out of control. I’d go to church, and I was completely just … My whole body was not mine.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah. So it started young.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And I would go home, and they’d police cars upfront of my house, because my mom was gone again, or she would hallucinate, and hide in closets and say there monsters under the bed. And there was so much bizarre behavior. I would get up, she’d be on the floor, crawling down the floor, and then all the night sweating.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And it was so much. And we weren’t allowed to talk about it. We were never allowed to speak about it. Just to not say anything, because of your … Number one, no one want to face the reality. And number two, if you say something, you’re going to upset mom. If you say, “This behavior last night was really messed up, or that scared me,” she’s going to get even more depressed, and even more crying.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    So I just had to internalize so much. And I didn’t know how. So yeah. I think my mum, she was eating disorder to the point of hospitalizations and stomach tubes. And she’d rip the out in the hospital, the tubes. And I would go in, and she’d be handcuffed to her hospital bed.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    For anorexia?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah. She did not want that tube in there. And she looked so scary, so skinny and so scary. And I could never be as skinny as her. I’m not built like her. And I thought she was disciplined. And so I wanted to be more disciplined. And I thought maybe she would be more proud of me and give me more attention if I could be smaller. Obviously it didn’t work.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And obviously in trying to get that attention, I then developed my own eating disorder, my own true. It had nothing with my mom anymore. It was all about me and what I got out of it. And a lot of times, for me, I didn’t feel successful. And I think that’s common in a lot of people. I thought I was failing all the time. I would get shaky if I didn’t eat. And then if I swallowed the food … I just always felt like a failure. I guess I couldn’t do it. I wasn’t disciplined enough. I wasn’t strong enough. I was a piece of crap.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And so when I found alcohol, I would say that my eating disorder continued on till … I think the opioids, the heroin, and when I was doing meth, I didn’t really think about the eating disorder. I was so (beep) up all the time, all the time. I was living in a whole another world. I was committing crimes. I was not living in humanity. I was an animal, for years. I mean, years and years, and years. None of that eating disorder or my body image. I was so out of it. But when I got into recovery, it returned.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Okay. That was exactly where I was going. For me, my eating disorder was the first attempt to feel better. And then, I found drugs and alcohol, which is way easier than eating disorder.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Way easier. It feels way much better.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    But you definitely feel more successful at your practice. And then it came back after I got sober.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah. My eating disorders, when I first got sober … Well, I was in prison. And I was bigger, because in prison you eat a bunch of carbs. So really, when I got home, and I started to become more aware of my size compared … All the women in prison are big. So I wasn’t playing much of the comparison game. I was living in a prison world, which is absolutely a whole another sub-universe. It’s not-

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Set of rules. Crazy set of rules.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    It’s absolutely not real life, absolutely not.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Why did you go … Okay. At 25, your boyfriend was stabbed by your ex-boyfriend?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Murdered.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Murdered, right. Which is exactly what happens in heroin and meth land. You couldn’t make that up, right? Of course that happens. That’s what happens. Did you have anything to do with that?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    No.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Well, that’s good.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah, thankfully, right? No. I was waiting for him to come pick me up. And I waited all night long. And it was not like him. And then we were staying in this apartment. It was all chaos, all Mexican gangs going on. So much meth, and so much drugs, and paranoia, and psychosis. Psychosis. So I was living in absolute psychotic environment.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And he never came. And then about 10:00 in the morning, all these cars, boom, boom, boom, boom, unmarked cars lined up outside the apartment. Cops, investigators, come banging on the door, and said, “I don’t care what kind of drugs you have in here. There’s something serious.” And I sank to the ground. And I knew, because ex-boyfriend, he had tried to kill me. He tried to kidnap me. He had a knife to my throat. I would wake up with bullets on my bed.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    You would wake up with bullets on your bed, and he hadn’t been there?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah. Or he’d leave in the morning when I’d actually sleep. There would be bullets around my body.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Did he kill your boyfriend because he was your boyfriend?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    I wish I could tell you no, but yeah. I think so. He stabbed him with the same knife that he had held to my throat two days before that, 35 times and left him up in the hills to die. And I ended up having to go to court and testify, because I was in custody when his trial came up. And so if I had not been in custody, I would never have gone to court.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    I was in custody, so they dragged me there. And I’ll be honest with you, I sat in that courtroom. And the attorneys asked me do I know any reason they would have conflict, and I said no. I followed the laws of the street. I did what I always have done. And I said nothing. And thankfully they didn’t need my testimony. He was convicted to 25 years to life. And he lost his life too. He was so … The drugs, and this … Everybody lost in that situation. He’s still sitting in prison to this day.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Anyways, but I did what I always did. I said nothing, because that’s what you do in the street, number one. That’s the street code. And out of fear, and out of just … I never felt worthy enough to make a stand that’s going to upset anybody. And maybe that’s my dad. Maybe that’s my dad in me. Maybe that’s not wanting to cause conflict, and just wanting everyone to like you, because nobody has ever shown you love. Whatever the reason, I never said anything.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And I’ve had to go through a lot of guilt about that. And obviously my ex is dead. But I have spoken to him in ways. And I think that given the situation, how much fear I was in, and the kind of lifestyle we were living, it is what it is. I wish I had handled it different. But I didn’t. And so that’s part of my story.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah. And the outcome for the ex was-

    Jen Elizabeth:

    The same, thankfully. Yeah.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    So I think that is … But I get that. There’s a saying in program we don’t regret the past, nor should we shut the door on it. And some stuff, it takes a long time to feel that way, if ever.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    For sure.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    If it’s only a work in progress that way. Then you went to prison for two years for drug related …

    Jen Elizabeth:

    All drug charges and stolen property. Yeah.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    And then that was when you made the call to your dad?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    I made the call to my dad actually … I’ve been in and out of jail lots of times. So I made the call to my dad in the six month program, which is the same program I was in when I had to go testify. I was in a six month behavioral modification program they do out somewhere in California. And that’s when I had to do all these therapies and all that stuff.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    It was the best thing ever happened to me, because even though that’s not my clean day, I did not stay clean. Everything I learned about myself in there was huge. And I had nowhere to run. And I could not escape the pain. And it was (beep) horrible, and horrible. But it was still important, everything that happened to me there. Yeah.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    That’s when I called my dad. Then I got out. And I went streets again. I wasn’t ready. I wasn’t ready to … I really thought this life was all pain. I just thought that that real happiness wasn’t possible for someone like me.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah.

    Peter Loeb:

    Hi! I’m Peter Loeb, CEO and co-founder of Lionrock Recovery. We’re proud to sponsor the Courage to Change. And I hope you find that it’s an inspiration. I was inspired to start Lionrock after my sister lost her own struggle with drugs and alcohol back in 2010. Because we provide care online by live video, Lionrock clients can get help from the privacy of home. We offer flexible schedules that fit our clients’ busy lives.

    Peter Loeb:

    And of course, we’re licensed and accredited, and we accept most private health insurance. You can find out more about us at lionrockrecovery.com. Or call us for a free consultation, no commitment at (800) 258-6550. Thank you.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    What changed? So you were in this, you said two years.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    I was in prison, yeah.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Okay. And where did that shift happen for you?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    When I went to prison, I started running tobacco illegally because you can’t smoke in California prisons. So I started smuggling tobacco in. And I was trading tobacco for pills and drinking, and living the same way I lived on the streets, only at a much smaller scale. So I tried to tell people, “I want to fair.” I was not strung out. But I was using.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And about a year into my sentence, I don’t know how else to say it. It’s like a divine intervention. I don’t know. I was sitting in my cell. And I just was surrounded by metal locker, metal bunks, and then walls. I had nothing. I was 34. I had nothing to show for myself, other than those years I’m going to serve. None.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And just a sensation came over me, and a silence filled the room. And it just hit me that this was it for me. If I didn’t do something, this was going to be the sum total of my life until my addiction took my life away. And for some reason, this tiny spark ignited inside of me that finally believed, just a little bit, that I didn’t want to die alone on some filthy dirty McDonald’s floor. And I didn’t want to overdose on some liver bed as a transient, with identification pending, because that’s the (beep) reality of my life.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    That is not far fetched. That is absolutely the reality of where I go. And that’s my clean day. It’s May 1st, 2011. And I did nothing more really for my recovery than I just did not drink or use after that day, or the day before, whatever. But I was still existed in prison. I still existed like a hard act. And I was always a push and pull.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And I wanted to hurt everybody before they could hurt me. And I was horrible to be around. And I hated women. I hated myself. I was verbally and horribly abusive to women. I thought women were weak. That’s the only kind of woman I ever saw. And so I didn’t want to be a woman. I wanted to be one of the guys.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And a lot of that behavior did not stop. And I wish I could say it did. But it didn’t stop when I got clean. In fact, those behaviors probably even grew bigger, because then I didn’t have anything to numb. And the takeaway is the only tools I really used to survive myself, which are drugs and alcohol. I was an absolute mess.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And I think it’s important for people to know that that is actually more common than not, because you’ll see a lot of stuff on social media where people are in their first week, or their whatever. And they’re just like sunshine. And they’re freaking drinking mocktails. And this is so wonderful. And it makes people that are barely (beep) able to survive themselves feel like something’s wrong with them or their recovery.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Well, no. The truth is that most of us struggle in the beginning. I struggled for years. The first few years of my recovery, I did not know. I hang on by a thread. The only thing I’ve ever done perfectly is non drinking, use, [inaudible 00:51:44] or whatever. That’s it. That is it.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah. And the interesting thing too is in the beginning, for me, it’s a constant … There’s a lot of work to be done always. But you’re also doing work for the first time while not altered. And that’s really hard. I mean, it’s really hard. It’s really hard. But it just comes down to it’s really hard to stay loaded. It’s really hard to stay in prison. It’s really hard. All that’s really hard. And so you just choose the better of the really hards. And the better of the really hard by the time you got sober, by the time I got sober was not using and doing the work.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah. Right.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    How did you start doing the work given that in the beginning you were in prison and you still stayed living the way. When did program, and work, and therapy start coming into play?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    A few years later. I mean, let’s see. When I first got out of prison, I went to my parents. I mean, I had nowhere to go. And I went back to that environment of dysfunction and violence, and abusive language and behavior. And I was spending a lot of time outside. And I went to AA and NA meetings as much as I could.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    A lot of times, I just didn’t want to go back to prison. I did not see any happiness for my future. I didn’t see that any life was possible for someone like me. I didn’t see healing. I didn’t see anything. I just didn’t want to go back to prison. And so sometimes that’s all I held on to.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And I tell people, hold to whatever you got to hold on to. I don’t give a (beep). Don’t let anybody tell you it’s wrong. Don’t let anybody tell you that’s not a reason to get in recovery. I don’t give a crap what it is. Hold on to it, because it will change.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    As time went on, and every day that I didn’t use or drink, and every day that I just like I open my eyes to this is not a healthy life. I don’t want to live like my parents and my brother. I didn’t know how to get out of it. But I just knew I didn’t want it.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And so slowly, things transpired. And my eating disorders came back. And I didn’t do anything about those. I started bulimia and starving myself. And I kind of just … That’s a torture in itself. And I just kind of let it go, because as long as I wasn’t drinking and using, then it’s all fair game.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah, totally.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    You pick the least of the evils, or whatever. But as you heal, it’s like I don’t want just … A lot of my recovery, my entire life, has been survival, okay? That’s pretty much … That’s the only word you can really use about my entire life. And that was pretty much the only word you could use for the first years of my recovery. I survived.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    I survived it. I managed to not drink and use. I managed to not kill myself and not go back to prison. But my life was just so suffocated and so much pain and much (beep) that I did not know how to face it. And it took a long time. And I got pregnant with my son. And nothing screams femininity than being pregnant, right?

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yes.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And I came face to face with my women issues like a train hit me, because I did not want people to see my stomach. I was not ashamed of my son. But I was ashamed of the womanliness of myself. And I started to really think about that. What’s that about? I had kind of like …

    Jen Elizabeth:

    I work with a therapist and a sponsor, and a lot of writing on my own and stuff. And I really realized I have an abusive example for a mother. I was raised in a cult where women were way less than the men, and silenced themselves. I then grew to do the same exact thing. Keep my mouth shut. And women in the drug world are all bad. All my examples of women have been not so great.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And so I started finding women that I admired and respected. And then I started as … It’s kind of like the trustworthy thing. The more trustworthy you become, you start to actually trust other people. It was the same with women. That as I started to kind of realize that had nothing to do with women, and that has nothing to do with me, and I saw women that I actually respected, it just kind of started to blossom.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And it’s taken me a long time to really feel that I am proud to be a woman today, and I am today. And women incredible creatures. I don’t hate men. I think I hear a lot, “You hate men.” I do not hate men. I love everybody. But if you knew where I came from, to be able to say that I am a feminist, that I actually love women, and I love being a woman amongst women is so huge for me that I don’t think women can grasp that.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah. I think a lot of us, I think a lot of people who come in, a lot of women, I should say, that come in really as afraid of other women. But all my friends were guys. And I wanted the whole thing. And because women …

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I think it was in some ways, I expected guys to hurt, to beat, to cheat or to this, or to that. To be untrustworthy. But I really wanted women to be trustworthy. And the few times that I had tried, and I got burned. And I think you just sort of the whole thing off, because the guys’ rules were easier to play by. They were more straight forward. Sick but straight forward.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I think a lot of us come in with that. And it’s important to talk about. And important to talk about that it’s a slow transition. And that especially depending on how long you’ve been living that way, and all these things, and to be gentle and patient with yourself that progress, not perfection. Making small changes on a daily basis and just keep moving forward.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah. My vagina has always hurt me. That I could not even say the word. In fact, right now, I hesitated from it. I’m always very self aware of myself. I still have things to work on. But it was always a source of pain. And even in addiction, I was assaulted.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    So you grow to hate it. Not everybody maybe. But that’s the direction I went. I did not want to. Some people of child sex abuse, they use it as a tool, because that’s how they’ve gotten love. I went the other direction. I hated it. I didn’t want anyone to see it. I didn’t want to even have one. I just-

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I spoke with a woman who felt that way. And having children, birthing children was a really difficult experience for her, which I found interesting. Because you talked about the femininity as related to pregnancy. So just curious, was that a part of it? Actually giving birth.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    With my son, yeah. I hated sitting there with my legs up like that. And I hated people staring at it. Doctors coming in and out, and then touching it. It was a difficult situation for me. But now, four years between my son and my daughter, and a lot of healing, a lot of … Giving birth to my daughter was a beautiful experience. Totally different.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I’m glad. And the contrast. That was an interesting thing. I didn’t experience that. And so really interesting to me that oh yeah, that bring up a lot, because it is. There’s nothing to get you to face childhood sexual trauma like getting pregnant and having children, and the whole process of that, and all prenatal care. I mean, it’s very invasive. And you are the host. And your body is a tool meant for … It’s a very intense experience.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    It hit me hard.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    It hit me hard. And I did not talk about it, because I was worried if I spoke about my fear that people would be … I already thought people would say what kind of mother I’d be, I only had a few years clean. And from where I come from, to think about … Plus I was so aggressive, and so hardcore, and rightfully so. I’m sure the mothers in my AA and NA meetings were secretly horrified that this gangster bitch was going to be a mother, and what kind of mother I’d be.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    So I didn’t talk about anything. I was in fear that I would molest my own children. I was in fear of was I going to be a mother like my mother. Am I going to use again? Because I know if I use, I will use my children away like that. And even today, I’d be gone. And trust me, I will mourn over it. But I will be gone.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    That all these fears. And I didn’t say anything. I just kind of internalized them. And I read a lot of books. And I think just every day that I … Well, as soon as my son was born, I looked at his face. And I knew what maternal love is.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    What did that bring up?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    I felt sad that I never had that. And I felt sad that my mom can’t feel that. And then I just knew that I’m okay. I am not going to … I am not damaged goods. I’m not too broken to heal. And I’m not too broken to become a mom.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And I’m telling, when they wheeled me out after I gave birth, and I had my son, and on the next day, or whatever. Going home, pushing the wheelchair for a day, I was so … I wanted to get in that car and get out of there so bad, because I was like, “If they find out who I am, they’re going to take my baby. I just want to get out of here.”

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And I did. But as soon as I got home, and like the first … I remember the next morning, just being him and I. There was so many. Friends. I said, “Get the (beep) out of here. I’m trying to bond.”

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    You clearly didn’t have twins.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    No. My God! I don’t know even how that-

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Please help.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah, right? Yeah. For you, yeah. You’re like, “Please don’t leave.”

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Don’t leave.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah. I can’t even imagine that. But I just remember sitting there looking at him and just … I felt like, “I’m okay.” And I think that that is so important because you feel so broken, so damaged, so dirty. All the things we feel, whether it be from childhood, or the wreckage of our addictions, to have that sense come over you, that has nothing to do with anything external, it’s all just inside. To know that I’m okay, and I’m capable of becoming whatever it is that I feel in my heart. And that was a huge moment for me. And I never told anybody I had that moment. I just had it.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    It sounds like it was the first time you didn’t feel broken.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    I did not. I felt like I’m capable. I just never felt capable of achieving anything. I would watch people have lives. And I just never felt that was possible for me, for someone like me. I just never did.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    It’s amazing what happens to us in recovery. It really is.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    I’m telling you.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    So what happened between the four years? Tell us what happened between the four years where your son and your daughter were born, and how … Because it sounds like there was a lot of work done there.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    A lot, yeah. I worked a lot on … My addiction story, I really had to kind of backtrack through the forest of (beep). And so my addiction story is not really that hard for me. I was raped in addiction. So I have had to work through that. But the reality is that all of my addictions and behaviors are all manifestations of my childhood.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And so every time I travel back, I find myself laying on the floor, in front of my mom’s closed bedroom door. And not even the molestation stuff. It actually begins before then. And just wanting her to love me.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And so I’ve done a lot of inner child work, and then I still do. None of this is ended. I continue it. I don’t want to be the same woman next year I am right now you’re talking to. I just want to keep growing.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Competing with the better version. Every day you want to be a better version.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Every day, I just want to keep growing, and keep being more free. And I learn new stuff all the time. But yeah. I’ve had to do a lot of inner child work. And one thing I do is I have a few pictures of myself when I was around five, which is when really my mom stuff, and the molestation, just really hit ahead. It’s bad.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And I envision, and I meditate, and envision picking her up, and holding her in the sunshine and telling her that she is good, and she is worthy, and none of that is her fault. And I do this almost every day. And I love her the way she should’ve been. And what’s happening is I’m re-parenting myself. And without realizing it, it’s like I’m bringing myself back up as I should’ve been, and also coming around and healing me as a woman I am today, if that makes sense.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Mm-hmm (affirmative). From both angles.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yes. And anybody that has childhood traumas, and there are so many traumas. And it does not have to be horrific as what I’m saying. It could be a lot of things. It’s very difficult to talk about. It’s very difficult to talk about your mother. It’s very complicated.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    But I highly suggest looking into inner child healing and inner child work, because that is what you need. Get off the addiction part for a minute, because really if you just get clean and sober, that’s beautiful. And that’s the first step to healing your life. But all that (beep) that lives just underneath that surface, if you do not fix that, you’re either going to use again, or worse, you’re going to live clean and sober, and in a lot of pain. I’d rather use, really.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Me too.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And then you’re going to, just like we’re saying, generational. You’re going to inflict the sickness just onto your spouse, your kids, everyone you touch. Just get the clean and sober. But then really get down to the roots of why. Like Johann Hari says not why the addiction, but why the pain. I think he said that. Maybe it’s the other guy. I don’t know. Anyways, but why the pain.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah, because as we talked about our eating disorder and our addiction were survival mechanisms that worked. That’s something we forget to talk about, especially in program and therapy. It was a very effective way of getting through it. And it worked for many years. That’s the piece.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    When I talk to people, I’m like, “Look, you’re alcoholism was a fantastic tool for many years. And it worked well. And then at some point, you transitioned, you crossed that imaginary line we talk about, and it stopped working, and it became the problem.” That’s alcoholism, right? It becomes the problem. But I think it’s actually the solution.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    So what is it the solution for, right? And that’s what you’re talking about, is why start? We know why you finished, right? We all know why we got sober. It’s pretty …

    Jen Elizabeth:

    It’s pretty clear.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    It made itself really clear, right? No one comes in on a winning streak. But why start?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah, for sure. I think when I speak about this, I get some flack from moms who say that, “My son is a heroin addict and I was a great mom. And he never had this or that, or whatever.” I think people feel attacked. So I want to make and say that yeah. There is a small percentage of people that get into a chemical dependence, and then have to turn towards street stuff. There is a difference between that and people that are already exhibiting those behaviors long before drugs and alcohol ever came into their life. The moms are always telling that stuff, “Oh! I was a great mom.”

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Here’s what’s important. I have twin boys. They’re fraternal. They’re two different personalities, right? And my great motherhood to one may not be what the other needs. And a great mom is the best mom that I can be, right? It doesn’t mean that it gives the child everything they need. It doesn’t mean that they put them in a school that is the one that helps them grow at the rate they need to grow. It doesn’t mean that society hasn’t scared the. It doesn’t mean that dad is a great dad. It doesn’t mean a thousand different things.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    So I would really push back against that. That you can be a wonderful … You could a perfect parent. You just could be a perfect parent for the wrong child. And that may not be what that child needs. And people you have the genetic predisposition, and then something in life, or some things in life don’t feel the way that then a person needs to feel.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Again, as a parent, I personally as a parent and an alcoholic and a drug addict, and eating disorder, and probably 10000 other anonymous programs, I will eventually probably end up in, I can tell you that it is very clear to me that I’m going to be the best mom that I can be. And I know that it won’t always be exactly what both of them need at the right time, the right intensity and whatever. And that’s just part of letting go, and doing life on life’s terms.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Right. The important thing is that your child or adult or whatever is out there getting help or whatever it is that they need, not [crosstalk 01:11:50] them wait. I’m telling you, coming from somebody that was never told that, I never felt that, how important that is. It’s huge. And I am constantly showing my children, and telling my children, and telling how proud I am of them. And I think we all probably do the things that we feel we lacked.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    But it’s so important, because they don’t feel from the home, they’re going to look for it somewhere, for sure, until that need is served.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    And if they’re looking for it-

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Dudes or girlfriends, or oh God! The list goes on.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah. All the anonymous programs. If they’re looking for it, then it probably isn’t going to healthy because they’re looking for it outside of the home.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Exactly. Having a daughter is so different than my son. They’re totally different. And not just boy girl. But just personalities and needs, and sensitivities and stuff. But one thing I’m really with my daughter, I think coming from being in recovery from eating disorders and putting so much emphasis on how I look, and what size I am, having anything to do with the quality of who I am, or that I really … I mean, that’s just like, “Oh! If my thighs are smaller, I must be smarter.” I mean, I don’t-

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    100%. I completely get that.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    It does not even compute. It does not make sense. But it made complete sense to me. And it’s something that I still have to be very, very, very careful about. Yeah.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I remember getting a B and thinking that if I was skinnier I would’ve had an A. And then thinking to myself, “What does that even mean?”

    Jen Elizabeth:

    That is so insane, right? But I get it.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I really thought that.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yep. It’s true. It’s like if skinnier equals happier, skinnier equals more successful. I mean, the list goes on. So I try to focus on my daughter’s other qualities than just being beautiful, because I want her to be filled. And I don’t know if it’ll work. And I’m just praying that it does. But I want her to know that she’s smart, and funny, and caring, and without always just …

    Jen Elizabeth:

    People are, “Oh! She’s so cute. She’s so beautiful.” But yes, she is. But she’s a lot more than that, because I know that there’s only so much pressure on her anyways, without even having to do with me. I mean, it’s like insane.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    My poor kids, and your poor kids, because they’re not going to be able to get away with much. I don’t care if it was years ago or not. I’m not it. I know they might get away with some stuff. But man! They’re not going to be able to get away with it. I mean, I lied and did all that stuff. My parents were so involved in the … They weren’t present.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Right. They weren’t present.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And we are in recovery, and sober, and clean, and present. And so there was so many signs I was showing as a little girl that were just completely brushed off, and it went unnoticed. When you’re in recovery and you get to be a sober parent, you’re present to see the little changes, and the little differences in their …

    Jen Elizabeth:

    So many parents, even maybe sober one that are in recovery, just may ignore these. They’re missing out on so much, I think. I think there’s a book called the 12 Steps for Everyone, or something. And not that you have to do the 12 steps. But for everybody to be more self aware would just benefit this world so much, don’t you think?

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Oh! For sure. And I think everybody can find, I mean, their anonymous programs. I think a lot of people struggle with the God part. And what’s funny to me is if you can belong to anonymous program having being in a religious cult as a child, and having trauma from that, then I feel like anyone can be, because it’s … So many of the objections are, well, you have to believe in God. They’re religious. They’re cults. Brainwash, all the different things.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    And for me, and I don’t know what your take on it is, but for me, I just needed a group of people that understood me. And if they wanted to use the word God, I got to the point where I just ignored it, and pretended that it wasn’t there, and not happening, and was like, “I’m going to believe whatever I’m going to believe. And as long as you guys aren’t super weird and crazy, then I need the help. I’ll the clean me.”

    Jen Elizabeth:

    I think if you’re searching for a way out, you can always find a way out. That’s what I think. I think if you’re searching for a reason not to have to be there, whether that’d be because you’re not wanting to be clean and sober, or you’re not wanting to do the work and face the steps or whatever, you’ll find 1000 reasons not to be in 1000 places.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    But when you’re really freaking desperate, and you really like there’s nowhere else but up. It is so down that you’re willing to, like you said, ignore the God part, or ignore the this part, and just hang on the fact that you actually have a group of people that are not loaded and stealing from you. Like wow! That’s a mind-blowing concept when you get clean and sober.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Totally.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    They actually are not trying to rob you. There’s nobody showing up and trying to steal your drugs, and all that stuff. What a concept. Whatever it is you got to hold to, like I said, just hold on to it. And a lot of times people evolve out of 12 steps. For me, I still am a member of NA and AA. But I also have expanded so far around that, because-

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Tell us about that.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    For me, I am a member of NA and AA. I also respect a lot of other roads to recovery. And in recovery, I do a lot of other things to heal myself like my inner child work, I’ve done some EGR therapies. I’ve done micro-current node … Whatever it is.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Healthy back.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Thank you. The micro-current one, not the old school one where you watch the screen and … That’s bogus. Because as I’m learning that talking about trauma does not heal trauma. And as I’m learning that actually trauma is stored in your nervous system. That’s where PTSD is stored, and CPTSD, and all this stuff.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And talking about it is very important part of your healing, and all that stuff. But to actually heal your nervous system, you’re going to have to venture out of the standard. And so although I do talk about all this stuff in AA and NA, and they don’t particularly care for me very much because I’m one that does not care about … I think everything should be … I don’t believe anything should be an outside issue. And I think everything is the issue.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    So tell people what outside issue mean? What you mean by that.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Meaning we should only talk about drugs and alcohol, obviously separately. But that’s it. Stick to the alcohol story if you’re in AA. Stick to the drug story if you’re in NA. Well, like I said, I think that is just the surface. And I think people are wounded way, way deeper than that. And I have no problem with sharing that, and sharing that, about the pain that brought me to my addiction, and sharing that there’s nothing wrong with anybody if they’ve been sober for 10 years, and they’re hurting so bad, but they’ve never dealt with their childhood stuff. That that’s part of that. I’m going to explain to why.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Totally.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah. I expanded so far out. Meditation, and yoga, and all these things that are considered maybe outside resources. I just went completely blank on the Buddhist …

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Recovery Dharma.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Refuge.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Refuge, yeah.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Refuge. All that stuff. I think it’s so great. I love it all. I have a great big toolbox, because I got a great big messed up mind. I need a lot of tools. And I think that’s okay. I love the 12 steps. I love the fellowship. I needed everything that they had to offer, and I still do.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    But I also think that it would be ignorant of me to just only do that, and just hold on to that. And that’s it. I’m not going to …. And a lot of them live like that. I’m not going to venture out. Nope. If it’s not AA, if it’s not a 12 step, I’m not doing it. Well, open up a little bit, because this world has so much to offer. Expand your healing. For me, recovery is all about healing. It’s not about not using and not drinking.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Right. You can’t heal while you’re using and drinking and-

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah. I mean, it’s all goes together. But to me, I don’t focus on the addiction and alcoholism. In the beginning, it’s important because you could barely manage to wake up without. I mean, I get it. But as you evolve and your recovery evolves, it becomes so much bigger than that, I think.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah. I mean, I think it’s advanced recovery, right?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Right.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    As one of my friends says, varsity recovery, where you move into a greater depth, because in the beginning it’s just going to bed sober. And then it’s quality. And then it’s work. And that timeline is different for different people. So I completely agree. And I think it’s important to branch out and have … If you’re not having fun in sobriety and you’re not healing and continuing to do the work, you’re probably leaving a lot on the table.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    For sure. Yeah. I mean, I just don’t want to be sober. I want to be happy and living out my purpose, and a good mom, and a happy friend. There’s so many parts of me that I want to explore, things I don’t even know about yet.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    The best thing about recovery is that I actually don’t wake up … Today, I don’t wake up just barely trading water. Today, I wake up with the desire to do more, and to expand more, and figure out more stuff, and write more, and speak to more people. And I’m willing to learn.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Like I said about the whole nervous system, I’m willing to learn more, because if I just shut myself up in a box, then that’s just where I’m at, that’s where I’m at. And that’s as far as I get. And that’s as healed as I get. I don’t want to live like that.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    But wherever you go, you have to find your people, right?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    For sure.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    That fit with you. And whether that’s your church, your 12 step meeting, your school. You can find the coolest, most loving accepting school, and you’re still going to find a clique of people who are doing it in a way you don’t like. And so I think the biggest point is find your people. Find your tribe. Find those people, because there is a group of people that’s doing it the way that you want to do it.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Absolutely. In every meeting I’ve gone to-

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    And ignore the rest.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Exactly. I’m here to save my life. And I’m here to share my story. I’m not here to make everybody happy, although I wanted to, for a long time. I know I cannot. And so yeah. Do what works for … What’s freeing you, and you will find people. The more that you exist in a way that you want to be …

    Jen Elizabeth:

    I found this circle of people. And some of them are complete AA people. And some of them do not do the 12 steps at all, whatever it is. But I found this circle of people that it’s like my family. I don’t have a family. I don’t have a natural, blood related family. But what I have is even more beautiful. I have people in my life that support me, and they encourage me to be whatever it is I want to be.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And on a bad day, they’re freaking proud of me when I get out of bed. And on a great day … And we’re not afraid to see each other shine. We’re not afraid to compliment each other. And it’s just I don’t if that’s what families are like. I’m not sure. I don’t know how that looks. But I know how I want my children, and how they want me to be. And I emulate the women that I respect today.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    I don’t have the mother that … I don’t want to be a mom like my mom. So I find other mothers that I respect, and pick … It’s like anything. With recovery, I just take pieces that feel good in my soul. And I take other pieces from another person. And I’m creating this woman. And that’s why my book is called Shape of a Woman. It’s about how I’m rebuilding my life, not by becoming someone new. I’m building her by all the things that once hurt me so much.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And that pain is where all the power to change your life is. It’s in that pain that you’re … I was willing to die to avoid that pain. But today, if I feel anything come up, I go straight there. I go straight down. I dig down to the deep end, because there must something I left under there. And that stuff is not be avoided. That’s the gold, man. That’s where-

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Take it out. Don’t let it get infected.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Dig it out, and bring it home. And then learn from it, and grow from it. It’s like I’m always finding stuff. I really am. I’m always finding stuff.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    The journey is never over.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Never over. I don’t want it to be over. I really don’t. I’m not looking for this end of the road. I really don’t. I hope I’m like 80 years old, still trying to do this. I just don’t. I love life today. Even the bad, even the hard days. And I have hard days. I still have nightmares sometimes that send me back. And I have days where I don’t feel like I’m good enough, and who am I to be speaking to people. I’m just a nobody. All that negative self talk.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    And I have days that I struggle through. But I just don’t give up, man, because I know those are the days I learn so much about myself. And those are days I share, because I know that to feel like you’re alone in something, that’s the worst. I want people to know they’re not alone. And if that means I share, and say the word vagina on a podcast …

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    You go girl.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    I’m freaking going, because I want people to know that they are not weird or odd. But there are people out there that are your people, that love you, and understand.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I love it. Well, you are an amazing woman. And your book, Shape of a Woman by Jen Elizabeth can be found on Amazon?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    And I’m also incredibly impressed with your two year old daughter who made very little noise.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    I’m telling you, I’m a afraid to look over this desk from where she’s colored. But she’s done very well, yeah.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I’m so impressed. I’m so impressed.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Me too.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Thank you so much for sharing your story, and doing your work out loud. It’s really important. We need people like you. And you’re a wonderful example of what all different kinds of recovery and just changing your life can look like.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Well, thank you. You guys are the first, I think one of the first, recovery accounts I ever actually started really following. It was Lionrock.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Oh, wow!

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Awesome.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yeah.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I love that.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    It’s been a long time, I think.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    What is your Instagram handle so people can follow your journey?

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Okay. It’s resurrektion with a K. So R-E-S-U-R-R-E-K-T-I-O-N_of_me. All across the board. Like Facebook, Twitter, all that. It’s the same.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Okay. Same? Okay.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Same thing.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate you, and can’t wait to follow your journey till you are 80 years old, and still trying to uncover, discover and discard.

    Jen Elizabeth:

    Yes, amen. I hear you. I’m there. I love it. Thank you.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Awesome.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    The Courage to Change: A Recovery Podcast would like to thank our sponsor Lionrock Recovery for their support. Lionrock Recovery provides online substance abuse counseling, where you can get help from the privacy from the privacy of your own home. For more information, visit www.lionrockrecovery.com/podcast. Subscribe and join our podcast community to hear amazing stories of courage and transformation.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    We’re so great to our listeners, and hope that you will engage with us. Please email us comments, questions, anything you want share with us, or how this podcast has affected you. Our email address is podcast@lionrockrecovery.com. We want to hear from you.