#101 – Andre Roberts – Where Are They Now?

Andre Roberts: Where Are They Now?

Andre Roberts is a personal trainer and tennis instructor who resides in Beverly Hills, CA. He originally shared his story in Season 2 as a bonus episode where he discussed having a segregated childhood and being a black man in today’s America. If you haven’t already listened to his story, make sure you check it out.

Today, we invited Andre back for a special ‘Where Are They Now’ episode to hear how things have changed for him in the last year. Much of our conversation focuses on racial equality and racial justice in light of the one-year anniversary of the death of George Floyd. Throughout the discussion, Andre shares his personal experience, the types of conversations he has been having surrounding race, and what sobriety is like for him today. 

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Episode Transcript

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Coming up on this episode of the Courage to Change.

Andre Roberts:

And I’ve always been that person that goes, Black people are not going to end racism. You cannot end something that you are a victim of, so the people that perpetrate it are going to have to be the ones that ended.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Hello, beautiful people, welcome to the Courage to Change, a Recovery Podcast. My name is Ashley Loeb Blassingame, and I am your host today. I have brought you Andre Roberts. This is our, Where Are They Now episode. Andre Roberts is a personal trainer and tennis instructor who resides in Beverly Hills, California. He originally shared his story in season two as a bonus episode, where he discussed having a segregated childhood and being a Black man in today’s America.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Today, we invited Andre back for a special, Where Are They Now episode to hear how things have changed for him in the last year. Much of our conversation is focusing on racial equality and racial justice in light of the one-year anniversary of the death of George Floyd. Throughout the discussion, Andre shares his personal experience, the types of conversations he has been having surrounding race and what sobriety is like for him today.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

It was so great to get to talk to Andrea again. He is just such an intelligent well-spoken, well-read, interesting, great storyteller, wonderful sobriety. I just really enjoy his company. And he had a lot of helpful things to tell us about what it’s been like in the last year and insight that I had not considered, which is always what I love to hear. I want to learn about the things that I am not considering. So without further ado, I give you my friend, our guests, Where Are They Now from season two, Andre Roberts. All right. Episode 101, let’s do this.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

You are listening to the Courage to Change, a Recovery Podcast. We’re a community of recovering people who have overcome the odds and found the courage to change. Each week, we share stories of recovery from substance abuse, eating disorders, grief and loss, childhood trauma, and other life-changing experiences. Come join us no matter where you are on your recovery journey.

Andre Roberts:

How’s everybody doing?

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

(singing).

Andre Roberts:

Don’t do that because now that song is going to be in my head all day, that’s cold blooded. That’s cold. You know what, I know later on I’ll be like, (singing). I’ll be like, “No, get out of here.”

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

I have a thing where I wake up with songs stuck in my head, does that ever happen to anybody else? I wake up and there’s a song already stuck in my head.

Andre Roberts:

I wish, I wake up with chaos in my room.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Yeah. Itty-bitty shitty committee?

Andre Roberts:

Oh yeah.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

My sponsors’ husband calls it K f radio.

Andre Roberts:

Yeah. And I take the dog out in the morning, so I literally, every morning I’m holding a bag of shit.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

There you go.

Andre Roberts:

[inaudible 00:03:42].

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Okay. So Andre, we’re doing a Where Are They Now episode, and this is very exciting to have you back. Thank you for being back.

Andre Roberts:

Thank you guys.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

So a year ago you were on the podcast and at the time we talked a lot, we talked a lot about you growing up and we talked a lot about the stuff around racial inequality that you experienced growing up, growing up in a segregated area. And this episode is going to be airing on the first anniversary of the death of George Floyd. If you can believe that, it’s been one year which is crazy.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

And so, we felt like it was kind of a great combination to have you here talking about what has happened in that year since you did the podcast, how that affected your life. This was the first podcast you had ever done. And also to talk to us about racial justice or injustice in the last year, especially as it relates to this anniversary. So kind of want to open the floor up to you to point us in the direction, maybe start somewhere around what it was like after doing your first podcast, after it aired.

Andre Roberts:

Good question. First of all, thank you again for the invitation. It was life altering, it was exciting and it allowed me to do some real introspective things because I listened to them myself and I was like, “Wow.” I mean, I kind of know what’s in my head, but I’ve never had the platform by which to espouse those views openly, one-on-one conversations with people. And so, because of the pandemic, the social interaction is limited with us humans, but I’m also a trainer and I teach tennis and work in recovery. So I travel here and there because of that.

Andre Roberts:

And so, I’m able to kind of interact with more people than most over this last year and I’m always aware of my “ambassadorship” because I’ve always interacted with people that don’t look like me. And because of that, I’m hyper aware of what I’m saying and what I’m on a good day.

Andre Roberts:

And I’m even more aware of what is around me, my surroundings and the body language of people and reactions of people. I’ve always been that way and it’s interesting over this last year all the conversations I’ve had with non-Black people. And people have reached out to me, in casual conversations have brought up things and I brought up things.

Andre Roberts:

And especially when I’m one-on-one, when I’m training people, I get some fascinating opinions. And it also enables me “ambassadorship” to give my take on what I’m hearing and also whatever subject matter of the day, the news of the day because I was stuck and glued to the news over the last year. I am however disheartened at some of the things that I see people collectively in this country doing, some of the things that I follow from my friends in their comment sections scare me, scare me.

Andre Roberts:

I have a friend that lived here and she moved back to Texas in El Paso, border town. And I have a trigger finger when it comes to that keyboard, so I don’t play. So if it elicits a visceral response from me, a physical response, I say, I ponder, ponder, I pause, pause, pause, and then I always respond. I self police what I say, because my goal is not to get into this banter with somebody and got you, got you, got you. My goal in that moment is to try and educate somebody.

Andre Roberts:

A lot of times, people don’t want to hear it, but I know that just by doing that, after those back and forth, he or she will hopefully think about what he or she said and think, and more importantly about what I said in response to what they said and maybe pause and think that there’s other points of view. We’re living in historical times in this country and I’m very well educated on what was happening in this country from its birth until present date.

Andre Roberts:

And there’s not a historical period in this country that I haven’t really study because I’m a firm believer in, if I’m going to be a part of the solution I have to know what the hell was going on and I have to arm myself with facts, I can’t just be flipping off the mouth and angry Black man and just saying things just to be saying them and given a point of view that is held by vast majority of Blacks because I’m not that dude, I have varying views depending on what the subject matter is.

Andre Roberts:

I’ll give an example. Black Lives Matter. I remember when it started seven, eight years ago, nine years ago. I don’t know, something like that. But when I first heard the term, honestly, I was like, “Who is this? What is this? And I don’t like this.” And I understood the premise behind it, but I disagreed with it because in my opinion, it was divisive.

Andre Roberts:

Now, I understand those that created and started this group and what their intentions were, but I also understand the potential reaction and probable reaction of people when they heard it. And so, if I felt that way being a Black man, then how did somebody feel that was, I won’t even say offense traveler, had views that didn’t necessarily see Blacks in the positive light, that uphold those stereotypes. You know what I’m saying?

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Yeah, I do. And it’s interesting that you say that because I’ve heard that privately from a lot of people of color, who’ve told me that. And I always say, “Look, a lot of these things, the catchphrase, the catchy, the defund, the police, the Black Lives Matter, these things, there’s a few more that are evading me right this moment, but they really don’t encompass what we’re actually talking about.” And so, that was very confusing.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

And I asked at one point in the beginning around George Floyd, which was a really intense, painful moment for me watching on television what was going on and with George Floyd. And at that time being in support of racial equality and people being treated well, I asked a question around, “Hey, shouldn’t we be saying that something… Aren’t we leaving out other people of color?” I asked, “Why is it offensive to say everyone matters or all lives matter or all colors matter, whatever, why is that offensive?” I got chewed out for that.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

And I wasn’t saying what I now understand what that’s supposed to mean, I was saying, “Gosh, don’t you think that people of color across all different races and combinations are being… Why isn’t that the conversation?” And people explained to me, but that’s in some way is a Dax Shepard and I love how he describes this; he describes it as a marketing problem, and it’s absolutely a marketing problem.

Andre Roberts:

That’s what it is. I have that issue with it. And so, I don’t espouse, I believe in racial equality, but I’ve outgrown that whole notion of… I don’t believe in racial pride. I don’t like hearing people say Black pride, White pride, Brown pride, Puerto Rican pride, Irish pride, I don’t like any of that. America is good at labeling things, this country is good at labeling people, putting jackets on people. And so to me, by putting a jacket on anybody, it creates subgroups and in essence, it separates us.

Andre Roberts:

So now, again, I understand the premise behind it, I just don’t agree with, like you said, the marketing, the wording, the language. And I have conversations with a lot of my friends about this White and Black and mostly older people and we just don’t see eye to eye. Now, my mother sees nothing wrong with it. My mother was a product of the ’60s. She was in the civil rights movement. You know what I mean?

Andre Roberts:

I used to hold signs as a little boy when police would kill people in Milwaukee unjustly. And so, I get all of that, but I also understand that America is only as strong as its weakest link. If the objective is to strengthen America, then we as Americans must strengthen it’s weakest link. And just by the historical nature of Blacks in this country, we have to be called the weakest link. And so, the only way America is going to grow stronger is to strengthen its weakest link.

Andre Roberts:

And so, the racist, if he really has pride in America, if he really wants America to be the best country on earth, it behooves even him to want Blacks to have more of a economic footprint in this country, more of an educational footprint in this country. You know what I mean? And so, people don’t see that, see, it’s not pie to me. It doesn’t run out, you know what I mean? Equality is not pie, I almost swore, it’s not pie.

Andre Roberts:

And so, people look at it as if I give you some equality and somehow, it’s taken away from my quality and that’s BS, it’s just not it. And so, we have to understand that in the scope of how ingrained, we won’t just call it racism, but racial bias because there’s people that aren’t racist, they don’t see a Black person or a Black person doesn’t see a White person or Asian person or whatever, and go, and they have to well up this anger, manufacturer this anger, there’s people out there like that, but I don’t understand it.

Andre Roberts:

You have to hate somebody. You have to see them and manufacturer this anger and rage, and snarl up and your whole central nervous system tightens up. That’s a lot of work. So I think there’s people that don’t espouse those views, but they have racial biases that they’re very unaware of because I have friends that say some racially insensitive shit, and they don’t even know it.

Andre Roberts:

And sometimes I give them a look and they kind of get it, and sometimes I’ll say something to them, I go… And what I like to do is, when somebody says something that’s racially insensitive about another ethnic group around me, I step in then. You know what I mean?

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

So I went to UCLA undergrad, and at least in my group of people, I was the minority in the groups that I hung out in. And it was very interesting to me. I think that was my first experience with that very educational also interesting how prejudice, biased, whatever word you want to use, racist, these other groups were against each other.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

And I found it to be so interesting how some of the most… I would be the only Caucasian person in the room and we would be talking about diversity, we’d be talking about racial justice. We’d be talking all these things because I was involved in a lot of those groups.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

So we would break out of the official because I was in student government and we would break out of the official capacity of the meeting, and we’d break into the social aspect. And the shit that people said about each other, the people of different cultures, colors, I was like, “You guys, that is equally as bad as the things that you are talking about trying to eradicate.”

Andre Roberts:

That just sparked something in my head. So during the times of slavery in this country, when slave masters would rape the women and have children, those light-skinned children or fair-skinned children, whatever you want to call, they would give them easier jobs to do. They would allow them to do not the backbreaking work. And so, over the course of time during the time that Africans were enslaved in this country, light-skinned people had it better than darker skin counterparts.

Andre Roberts:

And so, fast forward to present day when I was a teenager, my brother’s very dark skin. My sister’s a little lighter than me, we used to Cline him about his skin color not knowing why. I remember cartoons that use the word Blackie. When I was in college, I wrote a paper about racism in cartoons, you know what I mean? I said all that to say, in the Black community there’s a song by public enemy. And in the song, it goes (singing). And that’s something that always resonated with me.

Andre Roberts:

The slave masters programmed us to hate the darker of us. They treated the darker of us more harshly than the lighter of us. And post-slavery the same was true. There’s people in my family, they used to have this term that could pass that they looked almost White, they got treated differently. And again, my roots are in De Kalb, Mississippi, they got treated differently.

Andre Roberts:

My grandmother was one of 13 children, her 12 siblings, especially the females used to dog her. She told me personally about how they would treat her and even her own father and her own mother, how they would treat her. And so, I get that. How in a racial group, the people treat people differently. You can even say that, I mean, in high school, when somebody is overweight or the girl is prettier than other girl, the girl looks nerdier and how they’re treated. That’s very true of shades of Hughes in the Black community to this day; to this day, it happens.

Andre Roberts:

Just like there’s racist jokes, there’s racial jokes about darker skin Blacks and lighter skin Blacks that are well known in the Black community. You know what I mean? And so, historically, and that goes back to the programming of us. And something I wanted to make sure I talked about today is the inferiority complex in essence is what I’m talking about, that was programmed into us and there’s people that are my age older or younger, that they’re not deprogrammed yet. They’re not deprogrammed, I don’t know how or why.

Andre Roberts:

I’m one of those blessed ones that sees that, that can step out of it and look in and then analyze it and see it and know what it is, but I am thank God because there’s people that are making six, seven figures that don’t even know they have it. You know what I mean? It’s not a socioeconomic thing, it’s prevalent everywhere.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Do you think it’s related to your recovery, the deep works that you’ve done?

Andre Roberts:

No, I think it’s because I grew up in the hood and I used to go… I was in a boys home when I was a kid and it was in the suburbs, but it was in the county. I used to go to White areas. I went to a school that was predominantly White and I made White friends and I had Mexican friends, I had Asian friends, Laotian friends, Vietnamese friends, Puerto Rican friends. I just always gravitated towards uniqueness.

Andre Roberts:

And to me, anybody that did look like me was unique to me because I grew up around all Black folks. You know what I mean? And so, I’m fortunate in that. I had a very unique upbringing and I look back on my life and I was an abused child, but I was so lucky and blessed in some respects because some of the experiences that I had shaped and molded me for my endeavors of today, the things that I do today and how I feel like I’m a step ahead in some respects inwardly.

Andre Roberts:

And so, the inferiority thing was not what I wanted to talk about, I was using that as a segue into… because people talk about because of all the things that happened and about the generational trauma. What I’m here to tell you guys is, it’s not just Black trauma, people got to start realizing that shit. It’s not just Black trauma, is White trauma too, because if I was traumatized by inferiority complex, don’t you think that if I have a superiority complex and I’m on the other side that I wasn’t traumatized by that shit as well? Of course, I was.

Andre Roberts:

There’s White people in this country that have been programmed like I’ve been programmed to feel inferior and somehow I shook that, there’s people that have been programmed to feel superior and they don’t know it because they’ve been ingrained with superiority complexes and they don’t know that they’re traumatized by that too. That’s a trauma that’s been inflicted on them, and that needs to be treated just like inferiority complexes need to be treated in this country.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Do you think that we’ve come any closer to, I don’t even know what the word would be, but do you think we’ve come any closer to improvement in the last year? Do you think that George Floyd brought us any improvement?

Andre Roberts:

Honestly, we’ll not be able to answer that question until things get back to normal. Honestly, there’s no way to me to gauge it because in order to take the pulse of the society, you have to be out and amongst the society and we’re not out really amongst one another now.

Andre Roberts:

But I do say this, I don’t know for sure because I haven’t been able to have the observation, but what I can say, I can speculate on is when things open up and things can get back to normal, I believe that more White people are going to start calling out White people on their stuff.

Andre Roberts:

And I’ve always been that person that goes Black people are not going to end racism. You cannot end something that you are a victim of. So the people that perpetrate it are going to have to be the ones that ended. And what I mean by that is, White people are going to have to not give passes to other White people when they’re in the company with them in private and there’s only White people around.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

So there’s a bunch of commentary that I’m hearing around, cancel culture and cancel culture being something that many people are very aware, even I am incredibly aware of cancel culture. And a term I heard recently was counsel culture, where we educate each other; instead of canceling each other, we educate each other and that will be change.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

And my big concern about what I am seeing as it relates to what you’re talking about, which is that White people are going to be, or people in leadership positions, whatever it is, they are going to be the people to bring in social justice, that the focus is on canceling and not educating, and that is a mistake because you push people into hiding as opposed to encourage them into changing and I don’t think people are changing when you cancel them.

Andre Roberts:

No. You cannot legislate somebody’s heart, you know what I’m saying? That’s not happening. Being lorded over by people is not going to work. As a matter of fact, I want to know how you feel. Tell me how you feel. Tell me what you think, I want to know. I think it’s ridiculous to have a standup comedian… Standup comedians are afraid to get their stuff videotaped or recorded for fear that somebody’s going to be offended by a joke, a joke; not something that they’re really espoused, but a joke.

Andre Roberts:

What’s happening, I believe is a pendulum shift and [inaudible 00:25:43] generally are way too extreme. And at some point they correct themselves. Now, I’m a loose cannon. I speak my mind because I’m a free man and I have strong opinions. I keep them to myself if I choose to. But if I choose not to, and I give you my opinion, believe me, it really, really is my opinion. I don’t water anything down when I speak.

Andre Roberts:

I disagree with this “cancel culture.” It’s just a political football that people use to censor people that they disagree with. Look, I was raised in the hood. I just happened to have White friends. I got some homies, but they don’t necessarily talk to White people, they don’t deal with White people, that are really secretly afraid of White people.

Andre Roberts:

There’s some White people that don’t know Black people, they don’t deal with Black people, that are probably more than likely a little bit afraid of White people. Guess what happens when that kicks in? Fear, fear turns immediately into anger. You know why? Because I’m going to protect what I’m afraid of.

Andre Roberts:

And really, the root of the fear is not being educated, like you said, and not trying to find somebody that doesn’t look like you to get to know, you know what I mean? But there’s all White towns. There’s all Black hoods. The only thing they know about other ethnic groups is what they hear about on the news or if you’re getting filtered, subjective opinionated stuff, it’s no different than what was happening back in Jim Crow era.

Andre Roberts:

Joe Louis, when he won the heavyweight title, the very next day in the newspaper, it had him on the editorial cartoon with a gorilla face, gorilla hands and this White lady that was leaning up with her hands cowered and him cowering over the White one.

Andre Roberts:

So what they’re try to do that day to take away from him becoming the heavyweight champion of the world is, “Be careful, these Black dudes, they’re out to get your women.” On editorials that ran all around the country, that’s powerful, but that’s what they did back then. The thing with Dr. Seuss, people don’t realize Dr. Seuss put out… They were like, “Oh my God, they’re canceling Green Eggs and Ham.” Ain’t nobody thinking about no Green Eggs and Ham.

Andre Roberts:

The dude was using the word Nigger, kick a Nigger. Research Dr. Seuss and some of the things that the dude used to do. Look at old cartoons of Popeye, when Popeye would eat spinach and he would knock over these 30 Arabs and then they would fall prostrate to him and go, Salami, Salami, Baloney, the word that they use when they’re praying is Salaam. How racist cartoons were and how they shaped… It’s no wonder that we have biases as Americans living in this country.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

So what should we do with those things?

Andre Roberts:

Talk about them.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

So Dr. Seuss, and I’ve never seen the Dr. Seuss stuff, it didn’t come my way. All I saw was Green Eggs and Ham and the other stuff. So what should we do with the people or with the materials? Should we cancel everything Dr. Seuss ever did?

Andre Roberts:

You know what, I don’t think. I think the free market economy should determine even the racist stuff. If you want-

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Will they cancel them?

Andre Roberts:

No, no. You can still buy a Dr. Seuss books. They took certain things that he had out of circulation.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

So let me ask you this, why is Mein Kampf available for purchase as a historical document? What changes something from a historical document to something that we no longer allow to be sold? And I mean, I don’t care about Dr. Suess, I’m just wondering.

Andre Roberts:

You can still purchase it, it’s just that companies are not allowing that material to be sold through them or they’re not using it as educational material, you can still get this stuff. But Mein Kampf, that’s kind of heavier. I went to a bookstore, there’s a German strip mall where there’s all these German shops and I go into this one store, it’s a bookstore. And they have these old nine millimeter Rugers and stuff.

Andre Roberts:

The dude wouldn’t even come out of the back room to come and ask me if I wanted to… And I’m looking at, he’s got Mein Kampf, he’s got Nazi memorabilia. I’m like, “I’m in straight up, I’m in the third right, right here.” You know what I’m saying?

Andre Roberts:

It fascinated me to go to that long because I studied German in middle school and high school and in college for a couple of years. And I’m like, “Cool.” And I’m like, “Oh, Mein Kampf, oh, another Mein Kampf, oh, a Mein Kampf leather bound.” And I go and I see all, they don’t just have guns, they’re all German guns. You know what I’m saying? And I’m like, “Wow, they don’t want me in here.”

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Well, I think it will be interesting to see how we categorize because we’re really talking about categorizing, just generally categorizing. And I think it’ll be interesting to see, we’re looking at the pendulum and how we categorize things from historic information, this is the way things were because it’s funny as I see a lot of stuff, I love Lucy and lots of stuff around as it relates to women, shows, Bewitched, and different things that were on things like that, that-

Andre Roberts:

Aldrin the Genie.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Yeah. I mean, all that stuff to me, when I see it, it’s a commentary about how we treated women except that it’s also historical. When I see that stuff, I’m like, “Wow.” The thought to me is, “Wow, look how far we’ve come.” Or even when I read the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous, there is a chapter in there called Two Wives. And when I think about, reading that as a sober female alcoholic, young female alcoholic, I was incensed like, “Why is this in here? What is this shit? Get it out.”

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

And I remember I had a sponsor who was like, “Well, we just read it and it’s not meant for…” And this whole thing, just had a whole commentary about it. And my perspective is, “Well, okay, so this was written in the ’30s and this is a commentary, this is a historical document. And it includes things from history and we can take it out, which I actually wouldn’t be opposed to, but whatever, we can take it out or leave it in. But it’s a historical piece.”

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

And so, we have to decide as a nation and I don’t know how this will pan out, but we have to decide on what’s historical commentary about things that were going on at that period of time because every period of time has some horrible shit that went down and what we’re allowing to be… what we’re sanitizing, because I’m afraid we’re sanitizing history.

Andre Roberts:

Are you kidding me? I think history has always been overly sanitized in this country, but going back to the television thing, All in the Family, remember All in the Family? Archie Bunker?

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Andre Roberts:

I wish they would air that every day. I think they should air it every day and everybody should watch it every day and laugh at the buffoonery of bigotry. Why not? Because you put a mirror up to people; when you behave like this, this is how you look.

Andre Roberts:

Now, I believe that there’s powers at work that decide and dictate and determine what we should be fascinated by or driven by or angry about on any given day. So I don’t looking at the squirrels. I don’t chase the squirrels. I look at things as they come and just the blips on the screen, and look at things in their totality.

Andre Roberts:

And so, like I said earlier, that pendulum swing is there and it would be interested in seeing where it swings back to, but make no mistake America, things have changed in this country and they’re going to continue to change. And whether you agree with the change or not is totally up to you because the change is not going to stop. There are too many people in this country that know too much about the truth and too much about the past and too much about where they see the potential of what a society can be to be drilled back into that abyss, it’s not happening.

Andre Roberts:

I don’t care how much you legislate. I don’t care how much you oppress. I don’t care how many you murder. I don’t care how many you sensor. I don’t care how many people’s character you assassinate. It doesn’t matter because the train left 20, 30 years ago and it’s been going ever since. I saw it in small towns, I was in small towns in Wisconsin and I saw it with my own eyes and it’s connected to that. So the connectivity is there.

Andre Roberts:

This country is on a course that is steady and things that aren’t a part of the future are just going to start to slowly dissipate. But you have to understand something, they’re in the throes of death. That shit is dying out and it’s fighting for its life. You understand? And because it’s fighting for its life, it’s kicking and screaming. That shit gets choked out. It’s kicking and screaming. It really is, but it’s dying.

Andre Roberts:

And as it starts to die, people that were straddling in the fence are going to be like, “Ooh, I’m glad that shit is dead. Now I can just be me because I had some friends that were like that. And it didn’t sit well with me and I didn’t have enough courage to speak up or to say how I felt, to say what I thought, but now that’s done.”

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Stay tuned to hear more in just a moment.

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Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

You mentioned death and that was something when we met, we talked about. I asked you about George Floyd. I asked you about what that was like, seeing that. And you said it was eerily familiar. We talked about that. And of course, for me it was not. For me, it was like, “Wait, this is real? This is happening still, now?” And we had discourse about that. How did you feel when the verdict was read for Derek Chauvin?

Andre Roberts:

First of all, I was on the tennis court.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

That’s a great place to be.

Andre Roberts:

I was just like, “They better convict him.” Because I know that it was going to be… I don’t know. Because see, I mean, look at slavery, Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves for whatever reason, economic reasons. The North could not compete with the South economically because they had free labor. Nobody talks about that. They just say that Abraham Lincoln was, “God bless him. He freed the slaves.” Yeah. But what was the real reason? So I believe that, there was a lot of resistance to slavery from the slaves then, and they were fighting.

Andre Roberts:

There was these flare ups all over the country. If you look at history, there was people fighting and taking over these plantations. I believe that it would have been better off if Blacks would have fought for their freedom and literally shed blood. Not that they didn’t, but shed more blood, America would be a different country today. I package this up in that sense, maybe they should have found him not guilty and just showed them what the justice system was really about so people could be more appalled, not violent, just to be appalled. You know what I mean?

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

They would have been. So here’s a very interesting thing. So I happen to think is just Ashley’s opinion for what it’s worth and it’s based in nothing, but my opinion, no medical degree or otherwise. But I happen to think that he’s guilty and that he should be held responsible, that was horrendous. And all of the other factors held constant, my opinion still stays.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

However, I do think it would be, as it relates to a unbiased free and fair trial, that God help you if you stood in the way of Derek Chauvin being found guilty. I mean, I’m just saying I don’t think there was a world where it was going to happen, but let’s just say that was a situation. I can’t imagine anyone wanting to be that person-

Andre Roberts:

That’s happened before thousands of times.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Where people have-

Andre Roberts:

Not even gone to trial. I mean, do you know how many ghost there are in this country? For real, ponder that shit. How many hundreds of thousands of murders have happened?

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

I mean, didn’t the cops for Rodney King go free?

Andre Roberts:

Yeah.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Yeah. I mean, it’s insane. Well, and there was a fear for me like, “Oh my God, if this happens.” I think that would have been violent. I think there would have been [crosstalk 00:41:36] It would’ve been an absolute shit show.

Andre Roberts:

But I think that there would have been more people that would have not been violent and that would have been appalled by it. And I think that there would be a greater momentum towards change, you know what I mean?

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

You do?

Andre Roberts:

Yeah.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Okay. So in some ways, what I hear you saying, putting on my therapist hat, in some ways you’re saying that the conviction did a disservice because it didn’t make us fight for it.

Andre Roberts:

Yeah. I just believe that if had it been the different, it would have been a greater momentum. Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. Yeah, pretty much would’ve been a greater momentum and a greater push because movements kind of ebb and flow because they have to grab energy, and we need energy from stuff. And so, if there’s nothing to energize, so it was almost like, “He’s guilty. Okay, relax.”

Andre Roberts:

Now, the sentencing comes up. I like the fact that they got federally indicted nobodies. The bigger news was those cops getting federally indicted for failure to intervene. What that does is that puts on notice all the cops in the country, you know your partner is a piece of shit.

Andre Roberts:

If your partner continues in that behavior, just know that if you don’t do something, the attorneys general can’t save you. The district attorney can’t say to you. The feds come in, y’all both going to jail or you might go to jail and your partner doesn’t and he’s the one that committed the crime.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

I completely agree that’s the-

Andre Roberts:

To me, that was the biggest thing. That was-

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

That was the smoke out of the century.

Andre Roberts:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). I really believe that was the biggest thing to come out of this.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

I mean, I’ve been amazed to see, and again, this comes back to White privilege or however you want to categorize it. I’ve been amazed to see these people who still are shooting unarmed Black people like, “Wait, seriously, did you not? You’re wearing a f’ing body-cam.” I mean, seriously?

Andre Roberts:

How does that sound?

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

That’s what I mean. To me, it goes beyond racism to a whole new realm of complete brazen racial, human-

Andre Roberts:

Their mentality is, “We got to get them. We got to kill these.” I’m telling you that their mindset is, “We got to kill these-“

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

But there’s no self preservation.

Andre Roberts:

… it doesn’t matter.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

It does though, because that tells me if you rob a bank, you want-

Andre Roberts:

Because there’s people like that though.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Yeah. But that shit is wild to me, that is wild to me.

Andre Roberts:

I’m really aware of that, there are people that see me as an animal, there’s people in this country that look at anybody that doesn’t look like them as an animal.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Not with those glasses. Nobody can see you, he’s wearing… They look bright pink from hear.

Andre Roberts:

Goodbye Norma Jean Glass, [inaudible 00:44:59] my own Johns.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

[inaudible 00:45:00] Johns.

Andre Roberts:

Every time I get on a computer screen, somebody always says something about these glasses. I mean, every single time, never failed.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

This the first time I mentioned it, so I just had to.

Andre Roberts:

So you have people that are so filled with rage, so filled with hate that they put on blinders to the fact that they could be found out, and some people think that they have the right and the privilege to just kill. That’s the truth.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

I mean, let’s go further than that. Okay. Let’s just categorize this person. Billy Bob is racist cop, and Billy Bob is wearing a body-cam. He knows he’s wearing a body-cam. In this case, it’s a he just for easy. And he shoots an unarmed Black person because he has decided that all Black people are going to commit crimes.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

And he knows that they’re going to look at the body-cam and that it’s a high probability that it’s going to come out, and maybe that’s the high probability maybe. But let’s just say it’s a low probability, but it’s still a possibility. Then what the f happens? You’re going to jail.

Andre Roberts:

Do you remember what I said earlier about trauma, about the inferiority, about the generational trauma-

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Right. The trauma of superiority.

Andre Roberts:

… and how it applies to White people, that’s a prime example.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Right, there’s no self preservation.

Andre Roberts:

He’s been traumatized too, like everybody in this country has been victimized by it, it’s just on opposite sides of a magnetic field. So it’s the same thing, it’s just on opposite sides. And that’s a prime example of that.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

And you know what’s going to happen? We’re going to traumatize each other into the same f’ing prisons, right?

Andre Roberts:

I agree.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

It’s traumatizing each other on the same ends and this kind of violence where you’re ending up in the same place. And to me, I’m thinking if I’m a racist cop, I think the last place that I want to end up in is incarcerated for killing an unarmed person of color.

Andre Roberts:

You have to understand also how long he’s been doing it. He’s been doing it before smart phones were invented. So it’s kind of him putting on his socks and shoes in the morning. My thing is, how many people are locked up for the next 20 to 50 years because of this man, you know what I’m saying?

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Oh, I’m sure there are many, yeah.

Andre Roberts:

How many kids don’t have their father? How many wives don’t have their husbands because of that one cop. Now let’s add a DA, let’s add a detective, let’s add a homicide detective, let’s add a loan officer, a mortgage lender. Let’s add a fifth grade teacher to that mix. Let’s add a college professor to that mix. How many f’ing lives are they affecting?

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

A lot.

Andre Roberts:

I just named 10 people.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

I was listening to Michelle Obama’s book, which, great read by the way. And she talks about, she grew up on South Side Chicago and her-

Andre Roberts:

Rough right there.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Yeah, real rough. But she had her mother and a teacher. No, no, no. It was her mother. Her mother, she was going to be put in a class that was apparently in grade school, basement of the school that was not advanced, that’s a nice way of saying it. And her mother basically fought to have her put in this other class, which put her on an advanced track and basically, long and short of it is that the kids who stayed in that basement classroom went on to not do very well.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

And the kids who were plucked out by some confluence of luck and right timing ended up doing very well, and that was their ticket out if you will. And how seconds and inches we talk about in program about how we’re here by seconds and inches and same thing in situations like that, how much one person, a teacher can help a person and how many people need to fail you in order… how many people need to help versus how many you need to fail you in order to get you to end up where you are.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

She’s obviously extraordinary and people came out everywhere in which way between, but it was just a very interesting commentary on how someone can be greatly affected by someone that isn’t even their parent or just someone who has a meaningful relationship with you in the community.

Andre Roberts:

My grandmother married this guy who was not my paternal grandfather, his son, and he left… The guy that my grandmother married, left this guy who was a principal at my middle school. So he left this principal’s mother for my grandmother. He suspended me nine times, altered the trajectory of my education. I had to leave that school. He had no reason to suspend me nine times, but that’s an example of people that could fail you.

Andre Roberts:

I remember when I was in college, in political science class, the professor was obviously a Republican. He had a picture of him shaking hands with Ronald Reagan. And I was late on the paper. At this time, I had gotten into drugs. I did shit late sometimes. I go to his office-

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

I did shit late sometimes, best line ever.

Andre Roberts:

I got to this dude’s office to try and get an extension for my paper. I got like nine books to read. It’s not coming in tomorrow, man. I can’t make it tomorrow. And he goes, “Well, why is it that you’re going to be late?” I said, “Well, professor, now this is a lot to tell. My girlfriend’s pregnant. And I just been dealing with a lot.” You know what this bastard told me?

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Wear a condom?

Andre Roberts:

No. He said, “Son, you know what, why don’t you quit college and go get a job at a fast food restaurant?”

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Oh my goodness.

Andre Roberts:

I said, “You know what?” And when he said, the look on my face didn’t reveal what I thought nor did it reveal that I understood exactly who he was in that moment and what he was really trying to do. He was trying to take one more brother out of circulation of getting an education. I said, “Do you know what?” I said, “At some point I might have to do that, sir, but can I get an extension for this paper?”

Andre Roberts:

And he said, “Yeah. Let me know when you’re going to quit school.” I said, “I will. Thank you for the extension.” And I went and I did the paper and I did the paper on Nixon because I saw the picture of Ronald Reagan and this thing, and the last line in the paper was, “It wasn’t that Nixon did anything wrong, in my opinion, it was that he got caught.” And the bastard gave me an A.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Wow. Yeah. I mean, it’s stuff like that people reveal themselves in such amazing ways. I always wonder, I don’t think it’s racist related, but I wonder what ways I reveal myself good and bad because I think we all reveal ourselves in good and bad ways, in things we don’t even see. And I suspect that, to me, is the part where counsel culture and educating each other is really important.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

I’ve been very educated over this past year on, I mean, like I told you, I mean, I’m embarrassed to say this and we talked about this. I did not know that it was as bad as people wearing a body-cam. I thought if you wore a body-cam, that would stop.

Andre Roberts:

It would be a deterrent?

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Yeah, 100%. To be honest with you, I still really struggle with that because it’s crazy.

Andre Roberts:

There’s rules and guidelines at department, but there’s no laws that say that they have to turn their body-cams off. And the fact that they’re so brazen to have them on 24/7 anyways [inaudible 00:54:06] they’re eating at a restaurant, they should be on because anything-

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Sales companies record all of their calls for quality assurance purposes, okay?

Andre Roberts:

Wow.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Do you know what I mean? We do it in our corporate world with the blockchain, cryptocurrency is all about being traceable and transparent and all these, I mean, it’s asinine. And it also, I mean, if what I hear from both sides, one of the things is like, “Look, we deal with really ugly, gnarly things and that requires a certain amount of discretion and a certain amount of know-how, and so on and so forth.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

I’m like, “Okay, well, then the body-cam may even reinforce.” Like, “Hey, look how many times I was attacked in this scenario when I turned my back or look how many times…” You can show that, the body-cam, the surveillance, whatever you want to call it, can be both something to hold you accountable and something to hold us accountable to say, “Look, these people are not adequately armed, prepared, or this was a circumstance where they didn’t have the counseling skills that they needed for the scenario, when-“

Andre Roberts:

Right, and it would make their job better.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Right. So it’s accountability for all of us, and I think that’s a huge piece. And I really learned about that. And I’m open to the education and a lot of people I know are open to education, but were too afraid. I had a guy on the show who is a transgender man and I asked him all of the questions.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

I’m like, “Okay. So tell me what I can say. Tell me what I can’t say. How do I say it? Why is this offensive? How come I can’t ask you about surgery? How come I can ask you about the surgery, but not that surgery, tell me everything.” And I asked him all the questions because he was allowing me to do that and because I want to learn, but I’ve been afraid to ask those questions.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

And why I did it publicly was I knew that he was a safe person to do it with, I knew that he wasn’t judging me and I wanted other people to hear me ask the questions because I know everybody has them. And that’s the same thing is that if we open this up to educating each other instead of shaming each other for having the question in the first place, we’re going to do better.

Andre Roberts:

Yeah. I have an idea that I’m working on now with… I want to be part of the solution and this thing I want to do, I’m trying to find some funding for is to take me be a part of the crew and then go to the cities and rural areas all around the country, to barbershops because that’s where realness is.

Andre Roberts:

Any man you ever talked to would tell you, nothing’s off limits in a barbershop to talk about. And I would like to create a show where I go from place to place so I can show our similarities and show people that somebody there in the rural part of Alabama is not different than somebody that lives in Detroit, Michigan.

Andre Roberts:

And they’ll see that, they talk about the same things. If I can make this thing successful, if I can create it, get it started and have some success with it. It’s something that I’ve been thinking about for a couple of years now. And I’ve kind of been working towards it during this COVID period and this pandemic because I believe when you’re talking about communication, that’s a way I believe that we could communicate with one another.

Andre Roberts:

Because if somebody sees that in this barbershop, in this rural town in Mississippi is talking about his kids’ education, his wife, his problems, his joy, his loves, his pain. And they can hear a guy in Baltimore talk about the same things, but it’s slightly different dialect, then people will start to see, “Boy, we’re not that much different.” But by the end of this year, I want to have filmed a few episodes of it.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

That’s awesome.

Andre Roberts:

That’s really something that I really want to happen because it’s a need for it. And the reason I thought about doing it was a few years ago, I was in his barbershop and I was like, “Man, people need to hear this conversation. They would be fascinated by it.”

Andre Roberts:

If they would be fascinated by that conversation, imagine all the other conversations that happened in all the barbershops and nothing should be off limits because see, when you’re in a beauty salon, it’s you and the technician talking and you kind of whispering to each other and telling and gossiping one another.

Andre Roberts:

But in a barbershop, it could be five, 12 chairs. All those chairs could be full and all the barbers are there. And somebody says something and they say it loud enough for everybody to hear it and everybody has a right to chime in, and it’s fascinating to be in that discussion.

Andre Roberts:

That’s part of the coolness of being in a barbershop is to you look forward to engage in the discussion. You find out what’s happening in the hood that week, you know what I mean? That two weeks or however long you go without getting a haircut, takes you to get a haircut. And I know it would be beneficial to the American society, I really believe that. I really believed that people are going to gravitate towards it.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

But you have one problem.

Andre Roberts:

What’s that?

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Are you going to grow hair to be in the barbershop or what’s the plan?

Andre Roberts:

No.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

No?

Andre Roberts:

They can just take the straight razor and just line this up around here. No, we’re going to keep this low because if I let it grow, you can see that I’m losing hair and I can’t. I’m too vain, I can’t do it.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

All right. It’s interesting barbershops because you guys get your hair cut so much more regularly and sometimes you get your faces shaved, so I can see that it would be a much more… When I go, it’s not that regular. So I’m catching up with my hairdresser in her life whereas you guys are going so much more.

Andre Roberts:

And see, here’s the thing about the barbershop. Rival gang members can go into a barbershop and they know that’s sacred ground. They know not to bring their bullshit in there.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Is it really?

Andre Roberts:

Absolutely, because you never heard of nobody getting shot up in a barbershop.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

But they don’t go to different barbershops?

Andre Roberts:

Yeah. If you like that barber, you go to that barbershop and wherever you grew up going to, and y’all get older and then your boy is in a different gang and you y’all see each other or your enemies, it’s just-

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Cease fire.

Andre Roberts:

Yeah. It’s just, it is what it is. “I’ll see you somewhere else, but not here.” It just doesn’t happen.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

So my wrap-up question for you is how, and you answered the question with regard to what you’re doing. How can those of us, I guess who are not people of color, whatever that means in each of our contexts, what can those of us who aren’t people of color help do to be allies, to be helpful?

Andre Roberts:

Two things, one, on an individual level, when you hear people talk about other ethnic groups around you, when there’s just White people around, don’t argue with them, educate them and let them know that’s not how most people think. And chastise them in a way that makes them look at themselves and not in a way that fills them up with any more hate than they already feel.

Andre Roberts:

And secondly, don’t be afraid to talk to people of other ethnic groups about how they see what’s happening, to ask them their opinions, like you’re doing this interview with me, ask them the question one-on-one, it’s very vital. It’s very important that we engage one another in conversation.

Andre Roberts:

We have to walk through that fear and that uncomfortability of asking that awkward question, because you really want to know, the only way we’re going to know is to ask the question, what do you think about? Because then you get to see what somebody else’s perspective is. I don’t have a problem asking somebody that looks like me with their perspective of something is, so why should I have a problem asking somebody that doesn’t look like me what their perspective is on something?

Andre Roberts:

Because I want to hear different viewpoints on things. So I get a well-rounded opinion about what’s happening. You know what I mean? That’s very important to me because then I’m not limited in my scope. You know what I mean? If I’m limited in my scope, I just think just my opinion matters and my opinion is just one of millions please. Ego, isn’t that big, you know what I mean?

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Absolutely. Well, I adore having you on, it’s so fun. And I am just really grateful that we got the opportunity to catch up and especially on this anniversary. And I just, I really think I love your idea and I love being able to chop it up with you about this stuff because I feel really comfortable saying and asking the questions that I think, and that feels great. And I think a lot of us have those questions, how can we be helpful? What’s the perspective and I think it’s just more of these conversations need to take place. So I really, really appreciate you. And I’m really grateful that you’re here on this historical day, the first anniversary.

Andre Roberts:

It’s incredible. God willing, we’re okay. We’re already okay. Because like I said, the train is moving forward, sweetie. So don’t trip. I mean, even if we wanted to stop it, it wouldn’t stop.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

I’m just trying to pilot my own train-

Andre Roberts:

Exactly.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

… and I’ve got enough problems doing that, like a captain on every caboose, just trying to… Oh man, it’s been a wild year. I’m looking forward to things opening up and all of us having more and more conversations.

Andre Roberts:

Please, get out and do something this weekend.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Oh yeah. Doing a lot. Oh, one more thing I wanted to tell you that super timely. But yesterday I have one of my twin boys’ is very verbally inquisitive and he asked me, I forget how it came up, but he asked me what hate was yesterday.

Andre Roberts:

Wow.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

And he always does this to me, he asked me these questions that I’m just, I have no idea how to answer that. And he asked me what hate was yesterday. We were walking the dog and I had to go through and start talking about, it’s this really mean upsetting feeling, just trying to explain to a four year-old what hate is.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

And sometimes I forget, he knows what I don’t like because he… Oh, he asked me if I hate spiders and I said, “Well, I don’t hate spiders. I just, I don’t care for them.” And he’s like, “Well, what’s hate mean.” And very interesting, we all know what dislike means, but to explain hate to a four year old because I don’t think he hates anything.

Andre Roberts:

Right. I was about to say, there’s nothing that caught fall into his wheelhouse of hate.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

No. And it was just a really interesting thing about, a really interesting experience as a parent, these little parent moments where you’re like-

Andre Roberts:

Yeah, that’s heavy.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

We learn about this stuff. We learn what it means. We learn what it feels like. We manufacture this stuff. And just a really important thing to remember that we are teaching our kids about what these things are and what they mean. And what I told my son is that it was a really mean feeling.

Andre Roberts:

That’s incredible, as you can do you. You know what I mean?

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Yeah. I know, right? He does all the time.

Andre Roberts:

No, it’s beautiful. It’s absolutely beautiful. You’re such a lucky woman.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

Thank you. Thank you. Well, thanks Andre. I really appreciate it. We’ll talk soon.

Andre Roberts:

Thank you so much. God bless you, guys.

Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

This podcast is sponsored by lionrock.life, lionrock.life is a recovery community offering free online support group meetings, useful recovery information and entertainment. Visit www.lionrock.life to view the meeting schedule and find additional resources. Find the joy in recovery at lionrock.life.