#114 – Archie Messersmith-Bunting
Archie’s Story
Archie Messersmith-Bunting is known as ‘The Feelings Guy.’ He is a mental wellness professional speaker who helps people discover how leading with their feelings can improve their quality of life and save the lives of those they come in contact with.
Archie’s passion stems from his personal life experience. He was adopted at a young age and grew up in a religious setting where ‘pray the gay away’ was the cultural norm. In fact, he spent much of his high school and college careers trying to de-gay himself. Eventually addiction and clinical depression led him to a place where he believed suicide was his only answer.
After battling back from the jaws of addiction and embracing his gay, Archie now uses his voice to remind others that we are all more than “just” the wreckage of our past. He teaches that individual moments and decisions in our life do not define us, but they can help design us.
Additional Resources
Episode Resources
- The Atlantic | The Pandemic Did Not Affect Mental Health the Way You Think
Connect with Archie
- Archie’s Website | www.archiecares.com
- New Podcast |What a Feeling
- Instagram | @archie_cares
Connect The Courage to Change
- Podcast Website | lionrock.life/couragetochangepodcast
- Podcast Instagram | @couragetochange_podcast
- Podcast Facebook | @thecouragetochangepodcast
- Podcast Email | podcast@lionrock.life
Lionrock Resources
- Coffee & Coffee Alternatives | lionrock.life/shop-products
- Support Group Meeting Schedule | lionrock.life/meetings
Listen & Subscribe
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Episode Transcript
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Coming up on this episode of The Courage to Change.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I wasn’t going to get better, truly better, until I sought professional help and they were like, “We need to get you on some medicine because literally you’re talking to people.” But the problem was because I was a meth addict, they just-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah, it’s very depressing.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
…is he hallucinating, or is this a medical condition? And for a while there, we didn’t know. And so they just kept throwing stuff at me, trying to see what was going on. And until I really got honest about the fact that I hear voices in my head, until I really hear honest, honest about the fact that I’ve tried to take my life. Those are all things that I was trying to keep in this little bitty [inaudible 00:00:46] over in the corner, like we’re not going to deal with that and allow people, professionals to help me. I didn’t get better.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Hello, beautiful people. Welcome to The Courage to Change, a recovery podcast. My name is Ashley Loeb Blassingame and I am your host. Today we have Archie Messersmith-Bunting, who is known as “the feelings guy”. He is a mental wellness speaker who helps people discover how leading with their feelings can improve their quality of life and save the lives of those they come in contact with.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Archie’s passion stems from his personal life experience. He was adopted at a young age and grew up in a religious setting where pray the gay away was the cultural norm. In fact, he spent much of his high school and college career trying to de-gay himself. Eventually addiction and clinical depression led him to a place where he believed suicide was the only answer.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
After battling back from the jaws of addiction and embracing his gay, Archie now uses his voice to remind others that we are all more than just the wreckage of our past. He teaches that individual moments and decisions in our life do not define us, but they can help design us. Archie, my gosh, we had a blast talking about all the things and I had a lot of deep questions for him and he was so kind to follow my rabbit trails.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Archie is an example of someone who has taken the struggle and is giving back to others. He has a foundation, Archie Cares. You can find him at archiecares.com. He’s hilarious and if you’ve struggled with meth addiction, this is a really great episode to talk about what that feels like and some of the struggles that meth addicts experience in treatment and getting sober. I hope you enjoy this episode with my new pal, Archie, let’s do this.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
You are listening to The Courage to Change, a recovery podcast. We’re a community of recovering people who have overcome the odds and found the courage to change. Each week we share stories of recovery from substance abuse, eating disorders, grief and loss, childhood trauma, and other life-changing experiences. Come join us no matter where you are on your recovery journey. All right, Archie, thank you for being here. Welcome to The Courage to Change, a recovery podcast.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I’m excited.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Me as well. The feelings guy, that’s your name. You come highly, highly recommended by my girl, Arlina, so very, very excited.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I love me some Arlina.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
She’s, cracks me up. She’s amazing. We like to get started here with a picture and you it’s usually a bad hair picture, but I have a picture of you dressed as Tigger. Is that…
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I was like I don’t remember this. Yes.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
You’re like, no.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I was like, what is happening here now?
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
It’s getting weird.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Yes. Kade’s first… Was it his first Halloween? No second Halloween. My son’s second Halloween. Yeah, I dressed up as Tigger. My husband was Eeyore. And let me tell you these costumes totally fit our personalities.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
That’s so good.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
And then Kade was Winnie the Pooh and we were… It had looked a little… He was so tiny and it was built in with this little belly, this little nose.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yes.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
So cute. I miss my little boy.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
How old is he now?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
He’s three.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Good.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
And he’s-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Three is brutal. I could do without three.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Okay, can we just stop and talk for a second about this terrible two nonsense.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
It is bullshit.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
It is complete shit. You tell us that so that-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
It’s a lie.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
…we are like, “We made it.”
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
No. Okay, let me just tell you. I have twin four-year-old boys.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Gosh.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Okay. Just, exactly. And three, I was like, and you’re going in the garbage. The four is way better. It’s like four and three months, four and a half. But three is a pile of steaming shit.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
It’s so much. And so we’re potty training as you do. I’m sure you didn’t expect to talk about this, but let’s talk about it.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
No.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
We’re potty training-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
I love it.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
…as you do. And it’s not going all that well, it happens.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Shock. I’m like, “Get out.”
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
But then we had a parent teacher conference today because Kade is smaller than the rest of the humans in his class. And so I think that when they go to pushback, unfortunately their hands are right here at his face and so he keeps coming home with scratches on his face. And this is after a major scratch down his face six months ago when I almost lost my ever loving all the things.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Well, so scratch day one, scratch day two, then we get an incident report that he bit someone and I was like, “Yeah, no shit.” Look, of course he did. I have an education degree, so I’m trying to be professional and my husband’s talking and I’m just sitting there and I’m like, “I just want to make sure that we temper this.” Biting is not okay. But also if you’re harming me, I’m going to retaliate.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
And so he figured out he can bite. And so now we’re in this like how do we… This whole parenting thing, it is hilarious to me because I firmly believe if there were words in the English language to describe how horrible the first six months were, we’d be extinct. We would be extinct.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
100%. I’m going to go the full year, maybe nine. I’m going to go; I’m going to bring the double-down. Maybe nine months, but no.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Nine months, okay.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah, nine months it’s like they’re cute and they’re starting to sleep. Archie, you are gay married.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Yes. I’ve never heard of stuff like that before. Yes, I am a gay and I am married. I put a ring on it.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Wait, you put the ring?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
No, no, no, please. No.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
No, no, no. Okay, I was like-
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I got proposed to. My plan.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Okay. What I tell people who don’t like gay marriage is that they should probably not get gay married.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Real.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Right. I feel like it’s like if you don’t agree with gay marriage, you should definitely not get gay married.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Yeah, you should not.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
You should just stay away from it.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Okay. Well, since you said that, can I just tell you this really quick story?
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Okay, so we had a wedding planned because girl, you know is going to have a wedding. We had a wedding planned, we had the save the dates. We had all the things out. Well, then the adoption actually went a little faster than we thought it would. And in Virginia, we couldn’t adopt. It’s probably the case in most states, we couldn’t adopt Kade together unless we were married. We had to get married right then, because the delivery date was the same-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
You were trying to have a baby out of wedlock?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I know, right? My mother would be horrified.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
My God, what do you-
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Horrified.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Dear God. Are you from the south? What’s happening here?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
We go to the courthouse as you do.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Okay. As you do.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
This is right after the-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
We are here to get gay married.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Excuse me. But this is right after the riots in Charlottesville. All of the Confederate statues had huge black trash bags on them. We walked to the courthouse and there is a human dressed in his human clothes with his Confederate flag, pacing back and forth.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Right.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
We go inside, we’re like, “We’re going to get married.” And I didn’t call him. I was like, “Do you marry boys?” Because I just wanted to be sure. I was like, “Will you marry the gays?” And so we walk in and this-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
[Crosstalk 00:09:09]. I know they said it’s allowed, but just want to make sure you guys are still following the news.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
For real, are we really doing it. This big black sheriff walks out and he’s like, “You boys want to get married.”
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yes.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I was like, “Yes, sir.” And he goes, “Well, we usually do it over there in the rose garden, but watch this face.” And I was like, “No, we’re doing this at the rose garden.” A black man, two gay mens in front of a plastic statue of Robert E. Lee with this man pacing back and forth got married. Okay. But I’d tell you that people walked by-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
[Crosstalk 00:09:40]. Can I just tell you that’s my dream wedding right now.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
People were videotaping this shit. When he said you can kiss your husband. Let me just say, I cleaned the back of the teeth, I tickled his tonsils. I went in for the kiss. I’m sure this man was like, but there’s a sheriff there, so what are you going to do? That’s my wedding. That’s my wedding. That’s where I got married.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
That’s where you got married. But then did you do a big old?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
No. Because the ceremony wouldn’t have-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
That sounds good enough.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
That was enough. The ceremony would have been… We were in Florida. Because when you adopt a child, you can’t leave the state until all the stuff is cleared. And so we were just hanging out at Bill’s parent’s house the weekend of the wedding.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Of the wedding. How did you guys decide… Okay. Well, there’s I have so many questions. Okay, so first of all, a big part of your story is that you cannot pray the gay away, right?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Yes.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
You are here to testify. The gay is here to stay, right?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Uh-huh (Affirmative). Yes.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
I am fascinated by pray the gay away. Fascinate. Okay, so let me, a little tiny bit of background here. I grew up on the coasts, but mostly in San Francisco bay area. My first wedding I was ever in was a gay wedding. I did not know. I grew up around anti-Semitism, my dad’s Jewish. I did not know that normally in the rest of areas, men don’t marry men and women. I didn’t know that. I was in a gay wedding before gay weddings were legal.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
That’s amazing.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
My dad, one of his best friends was in PR and he and his husband when I was 10 used to take me for the weekends, take me to the hairdresser. They lived in San Francisco and they had a convertible and they had this nice house and they would take me to get my hair done and take me… And I stayed with them for the weekend. Just my parents, bye-bye.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
I did not know. It was a very big shock to me that the rest of the country was like, hey, not so much. The pray the gay away thing to me has just been fascinating because I am like, “Have you met gay people?” Have you met them when they’re like everybody knows when you have that kid in class who’s… We have friends whose sons you’re like, “He’s gay. He’s not even attractive. There’s no sex going on.” And you’re like, “They have kids.”
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
He’s gay. Yeah.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
You can see it. The pray the gay away is a very interesting concept to me. And I’m curious, did someone… Was that part of your experience?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Yes.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yes. A lot of praying.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Yeah. It’s so weird you asked me this because I had an emotional moment yesterday, there is a new film coming out, Ryan Murphy is producing it called Pray Away. And it is the former leaders of the Exodus Movement. And the Exodus Movement is how this all began. These humans said that they prayed the gay away and so they began leading these retreats and parents forcing their kids. And there was literature on how to… Because-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Who is praying? Is the kid praying, is everyone-
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
The kid.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
…praying?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
No, the kid praying. Yeah, the kid.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Kid is praying.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
The kid is praying, yeah.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Okay.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
There’s this, what is that woman that interviewed the former president and he was like, “You’re being kind of rude.” Diane Stallworth, maybe that’s her name. Anyway, interviewing two decades ago. And this man was so gay and she was like, “So you’re saying that you’re not gay anymore?” And he was like, “Yes.” And I was like, “You’re so gay.” But these people cause so much hurt and now-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Was it Lindsay Graham?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I wish. And now they’re all gay. They’ve always been gay, but now they’re like, we can’t be silent anymore. They’ve all come forward and said, “We were lying.”
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
They are all out now.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
We were lying. We were lying.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
When everyone is like, “No way, you were lying?”
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I watched this and I was like, “Do you not realize how many walks through the cross that I made? How many altar calls I made? How many nights in my room just praying that this would go away because you told me that it’s bad? You told me I’m going to hell. You told me I’m not worthy. You told me I’m not worthy to be loved.” And so that only-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
[Crosstalk 00:14:01]. You believed them.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Of course I did. Yeah. Because I was in the church and that’s how it was solved. I say to people sometimes, no wonder I was a drug addict because here’s the T, the first time I tried drugs, it gave me what I was looking for on all those walks to the cross. It gave me peace. It gave me a normalcy. It made me feel whole, like this thing that I had been seeking in the church, I found in the club and no that I became a drug addict.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Of course, I did. But it’s just, it is not talked about enough. It is a trauma. It is a trauma to tell a young person they’re going to go to hell because they’re gay. That’s a trauma and it should be punishable in my opinion.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
It’s interesting. I went to Catholic school for eight years, but I’m not Catholic. We’re Episcopalian so I grew up with a female priest and gay… It was just so different, but I went to Sacred Heart for eight years, so I saw it, but in my home, my parents were like, “Yeah, don’t worry about it.” They-
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Yeah. That’s awesome.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Even though I was exposed, and they were not super pleased with me and any of the things about me and… But because my parents didn’t believe it or it didn’t stick the same way, which is I feel like it’s like it was like the words didn’t feel the same way. But if your parents, these people that you trust and are supposed to be, they’re your gods when you’re… We see how it is when they’re little, we take care of them, they rely on us.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
If they’re telling you this is going to happen, that feels that that must be real and if it’s something you can’t seem to change about yourself, then you must be sure that… Did you believe that you were going to literally burn in a place called hell?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Yeah. Because it for some reason, unbeknownst to me, the Southern Baptist have picked this thing. They picked this, you can be remarried 12 times. You can wear earrings, you can cut your hair, you can eat the skin of a pig. You can play football with the skin. You can do all the things in that passage in Leviticus that they choose to latch on to, except this one thing. And this thing is unforgivable.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I honestly believe that they would forgive. And I think this has been proven in the Independent Fundamental Baptist church that the people in the church will forgive those who do horrible things to children, unless they gay. And then if they gay, they’re like, “No, we can’t do the gays.” And I just, I don’t understand.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I really don’t fundamentally understand how you can read this book called the Bible and then you just pick this one… I just love me some pick and choose Christians. I love them. I’m a pick and choose this then I’m going to use it against you, but everything else is fine. I just, I don’t understand.
PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [0:17:00]
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Your families, they were Southern Baptist-
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Southern Baptist, yeah.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Do you have siblings?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Mm-hmm, I have a younger brother who he is… Well, actually we were both ministers because they can’t unminister me, which I love. But I was a Southern Baptist minister and Micah is as well, but Micah teaches at a private Christian school. But his daughters know who we are. They know that I’m with Bill and they know that Kade is our child.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I am certain that that was challenging for Micah to try to rationalize. I know that if he could just stop this, he would, but this is over here, that this is this. But we’re all in a good place now.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
I think in some ways it’s really good too, because once you know that thing, if two things can’t be true at the same time, if you can’t be a horrible person and he knows you, he knows who you are, it’s not just this gay person over in San Francisco and you’re in the south, right. If you have a name and a person and you know, that makes it harder.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
And I think it’s like that with every judgment we have, it’s every judgment that we make about somebody if we know that if… It doesn’t always help, but a lot of the time it does. But part of your story though, was also being adopted. I’m wondering, how old were you when they told you that you were adopted and did you connect to gay and adoption at all?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
No to the latter. But I don’t remember ever not knowing.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Interesting.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
What’s fascinating though is that now that I do have a child and I know how much happens. I went to live with people I call my parents, they’re my parents, when I was two. When I was born, I was surrendered at the hospital in the emergency placement, which is fairly common. And then I don’t know how long I was there. And then I moved to my foster home which I have no memories of.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
But I know how much happened between zero and two. I do know that there were stories that when my parents would… When I say my parents, I mean the people I live with now or lived with. We would all be in the den and they would leave the room and I would lose my mind because they left the room and so I assumed they weren’t coming back.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I jokingly say, I know I look young, but girl, I am not. Back in 1978, I guess is when I would have been showing up at my house, girl, we didn’t have no Oprah. We didn’t have no Ellen, we barely had TV. And we lived in the country, so there was no talk about his feelings. And there was just all like I lived in the south, so suck it up, walk it off, get over it. And all of those things stayed with me until they were [inaudible 00:19:51].
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
When did they go [inaudible 00:19:56]?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Yeah. Well, they didn’t truly go [inaudible 00:20:00] until after college. But they began to show their… I went to a private Christian college for college because I thought if anything in the world can de-gay me, it is a private Southern Baptist institution. This will make it go away.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Okay. When did you know you were gay?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Yes. Okay. I’m pretty sure I’m significantly older than you, but you don’t ask a woman or a gay man their age, we’re not going to. But-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
We are not going to.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I was home. I was home from sick. I was home… I was home from sick. I was home sick one day from school and it was a very, it is a now a very famous Oprah episode where I think this was right after Ryan White had contracted HIV, the little kid that was a hemophiliac. It’s the first thing they brought it into again, we had Oprah, so there were things coming into the world, but it was the first really case where it wasn’t the gays in San Francisco getting the AIDS.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
It was the kid who got HIV. And so she was in the south and she had the audience split into two sides and they were yelling at each other. I remember this man on the mic being like, “Damn, damn fags.” I don’t know why, but something clicked inside because I understood what was going on. But I remember thinking, my God, that’s me. I’m screwed. I remember-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
How old were you?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Early junior high.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Okay.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I knew something was off because I wanted to play with the girls, but not play with them. I wanted to play tea set. I didn’t want to flirt with them. And I wasn’t very good at sports. Sports ball was not my thing. Yeah, that’s when I had the thing. Of course the attractions didn’t start until later and like you said, everyone knows when someone’s gay.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
My high school career was not pleasant. My junior high, high school, not pleasant.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Did you try to hook up with women?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Yes. Well, no, see, that was the great part about going to the Southern Baptist. And that’s the other great part about going to a Southern [inaudible 00:21:58] university, everybody was saving themselves for marriage, so I didn’t have to. I had this constant pass. I would make out with girls and I had girlfriends and there was one that I was going to marry. I was going to get married. But yeah, no.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Did she know?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I don’t know. The girl that I was going to get married to we’re not in touch anymore. It was just not a great ending. Because also with her, it was like, okay, I’m ending this so that I can be gay. And so then I was gay and that was hard.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah, that’s hard.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
But there is a girl that I’m great friends with and we dated actually most of college. And she was always like, “I always knew, but you were just so fun.” And now we’re great friends and our kids have met and I’m saying so.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah. That’s great, I didn’t think of that. Yeah, you’re saving yourself for marriage. That’ll change the game right there. You go to college, you’re like, okay, if there’s anything that’s going to change it’s this, that doesn’t happen.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
It did not work. No.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Okay. It did not work, so you leave girl I’m going to marry to be gay. What does that look like?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Well, so this was I’d graduated college and she was still in school and I was teaching high school, which was a miserable experience. But I it was what you’re supposed to do. You’re supposed to get married and get a job and have 2.5 kids and all that sort of stuff, because this was 1999. And my junior and senior year in college, I had been cast in a Birmingham summer Fest, which was Alabama’s big summer stock theater.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I was one of the ensemble members and all the leads were coming in from New York. I was making all these connections, all these people and I was straight then, of course, but they were all like, “Archie, you’re so gay.” I was like, “No, no, I love Jesus. I’m straight.” And they were like, “Okay.” And so-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
They’re like, “This should be good.”
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
And actually during that experience was my first consequence from drugs and alcohol. I was playing curly in Oklahoma and I didn’t really… I was pretty cocky back then and I didn’t really know what it meant to lead a show. I knew that I could sing. I could sing the shit out of this part, but I really wasn’t digging into anything else.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
And so we would all go out clubbing. Well, I know now today that the leads don’t do that. The ensemble, sure you can go out because you’re not singing about like… So for some reason I got the hiccups, I don’t know why. And I had hiccups for two days and I couldn’t stop hiccupping. And so I went to hospital and the thing, at least back in 1999, the thing they give you to stop the hiccups is the same thing they give you to stop an acid trip.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I was asleep. And so I didn’t do so well in the opening of the show and so I got replaced in the middle of the run. They replaced me. It wasn’t until years later that I looked back on that and saw that’s my first real consequence from drugs and alcohol. At the time I was just like F them and blah, blah, blah. And so I packed my bags and moved to New York city. And so in one way it propelled me into the next part of my life. But in reality it was the beginning of [inaudible 00:25:18].
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
It was the beginning of the consequences now. But did you use drugs and alcohol in high school and college?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
No, no, no.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
No. So this-
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Again, Jesus. Jesus.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah, I know people who love Jesus and drink, but…
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
No.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
You started using, was this the first time you used?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
It was in that time period, yeah. I didn’t try alcohol until I was 21. My fraternity brothers gave me this fruity drink. I had no idea what I was drinking because I’d never, whatever. It probably was this much alcohol, this much fruit punch and I was gone, but I didn’t really enjoy it. It wasn’t really a thing, but then I was like, I’ll go and so this thing? And then in that time period that I’m discussing, I tried ecstasy for the first time and ecstasy was the Band-Aid that my heart needed. And so it was in that time period where it happened, yeah.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
What did drugs and alcohol do for you?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Yeah, it made me feel loved. It made me feel accepted. It made me feel whole. With anyone, it made me more social. But that was the… I’m a social person anyway, so it just made me more social and I’m okay being social without it. But it was the fact that it put a Band-Aid on all the hurt inside. And really that’s what I chased was that Band-Aid of all the internalized homophobia, all the self-hatred, all the being made fun of, all that. That’s what I chased, that Band-Aid.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
How did moving to New York city help or hurt you coming into your sexuality and shedding… How did you shed the homophobia, right, or that self-hatred?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Well, that took a while, but when I say that I stepped off the airplane in New York city and I was gay, I was a bad as gay as you can be. I was real skinny back then because I was dancing. I was a dancing queen. And so I went to the H&M in Chelsea, which is very gay. At least it was back then, it’s not anymore. I remember that there were these black, stretchy sparkly pants in the-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
[Crosstalk 00:27:34]. Wow.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
And I was like, “I guess I’ll be trying these on.” And they were like, “That’s it?” And I was like, “I know.” And I [inaudible 00:27:39] pants. But like I was, I would buy little applicates and I would applicate them on my face just to go to the Dwayne Reed. Not to go out.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah. You were… I was-
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
You book them to go out.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
You were like, “If I’m going to hell, I’m driving the bus.”
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I was gay, but, and for a while there, it was really fun. I was performing professionally, touring, national tours, cruise ships. And so when I would go off and do my thing, we would just drink. The one exception to that was I was on this cruise ship, we were in Ushuaia, which is the Southern most portion of the world. It’s right before Antarctica. And we went clubbing and this girl, we didn’t even speak the language, she was like, ” Do you want some ecstasy?” We were like, “Sure.”
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
We’re like we’re doing ecstasy in Antarctica, which is insane looking back now. That’s one place you want to be in charge of your faculties in case something happens. But for the most part I didn’t use overseas. I would just drink like a fish and then I would land back in America and get high. And for me, things really begin to go down quickly when I was introduced to crystal meth.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Now in truth, the first time I ever snorted it, I thought I was snorting coke and it was not. And I went from snorting it to smoking it, to shooting it within I don’t know, four months, it was fast.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah. Well, because it hurts like f’ing hell going up your nose.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Yes. It’s a nightmare.
PART 2 of 4 ENDS [0:29:08]
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah. Who introduced you to crystal meth and how did the Southern Baptist boy… A lot of people say why aren’t you afraid of doing those drugs? Don’t you know what happen, blah, blah, blah? Why weren’t you afraid?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I think because I was so confused that this God that was supposed to be loving and giving and I love contemporary Christian music. And I toured with a group that sang. I loved it. I was like, the God that I sang about was not the God that they would preach from the pulpit. I just really turned my back on the whole thing. I remember being at an audition once.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
And again, I was very cocky, but looking up and saying, I got this. And then I got the job. And I was like, “See, I got this.” That part of my life was just not something that was, it was not, it wasn’t a thing. And my life was really dance classes, working, auditioning, and then performing. I don’t know who I was hanging out with some guys and somebody passed a baggy and I assumed it was coke and it wasn’t. And then my life was just off to the races.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
When you started shooting meth or the first time, because I talk about this, the first time you… There are these things in addiction where we’re like, okay, I’ll never do that. I’ll never do that.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I’ll never do that.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
I’ll never do that. Right.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Yeah.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
And then so we keep moving that thing, whatever it is that we’ll never do. And when you get… I always tell people, for me, I knew that by the time I started regularly putting a needle in my arm, that there was a big problem, but I thought it was with just that, my brain was like, you have a heroin problem. This is the problem. I excluded alcohol, I excluded. Those weren’t the problems, right.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
What were some of the things that you told yourself when you made this transition about who you were, what was happening, what was going to happen in the future etc.?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
As my drug use progressed, and it got much more hardcore, I couldn’t lower my standards fast enough to be around the people that I was around. When I was still doing ecstasy and coke and GHB, those are club drugs. And the people are pretty and the dancing is all night long and all the stuff. Well, I remember when I was going to… I met this guy that I was going to get stuff, buy stuff from and he said, “Do you want to smoke?”
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
And I said, “I don’t do that.” And he was like, “Well, I can do it for you.” And I was like, “Okay, what not?” Whatever. Because I’d just like, I did the bumps, I was high. And I truly do remember sitting on his bedroom floor thinking this is going to be a problem because the high was completely different than anything I’d ever experienced.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Like you, I was like, I’m never, there’s no way I’m ever going to do this needle thing. I was hooking up with a doctor and we were partying and he said, “Do you want to slam?” I didn’t know what that meant. And then he told me, I was like, “No, no, no.” But then I was like, wait a minute, if I’m going to try this, I might as well try it with a doctor, that makes sense, he knows what he’s doing.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
It made sense. Today it doesn’t. But then I was like, hey, he’s a doctor.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Obviously.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
And then I thought, well, as long as I don’t learn how to do it myself that I’m fine. And then that only took a month because I was like, I’ll just try it. I’ll just try it.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Right. YOLO.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Yeah, then it was just like [inaudible 00:32:49].
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
What did that spiral look like and how fast did it happen?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Fast. I was in a relationship. We were both in… So at this point I was trying to figure it out. I was in and out of the rooms, not really succeeding very well, but I got kicked out of my apartment. I had nowhere to live. I was couch surfing. I got fired from my last show. I was trying to put work together; whatever kind of work I could find to make money to do anything. And then I overdosed and I woke up in ICU having been intubated.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I would love to say that I walked out of that hospital and never used again. That’s not what happened. I had to keep crashing and keep crashing and keep crushing. And then I tried to take my life because I just, the pain was just unbearable and I just couldn’t get it to stop and then eventually I found my way back to program and this man who, whatever people listening believe in higher power, God, whoever, this man came from there and just saved my life.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I say man, I think he probably was like 27. He was younger than me. And he’s like, “We’re going to do this thing. You are going to do this.” And I was like, “I’ll go.” The rest is history.
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Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
People talk about not being able to stop and that. So often I see the confusion in people who don’t struggle with this in their eyes of like, why can’t you stop something that you’re giving yourself, right? How is it that you can’t stop putting something into your giving yourself? I have my own analogies, but do you have any way that you explain that feeling, that phenomenon of I cannot stop this, so I’m going to kill myself that kind of reasoning all along to it’s time to end my life?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Yeah, somewhat. Actually I talked about this the other day that I remember for a long time when I was using… Have you seen the movie, The Manchurian Candidate? Have you seen that movie?
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
So long ago, yeah.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
But the premise that they’re reprogrammed and if they hear this word or phrase it’s flipped and there’s nothing there. That I honestly believed that I had messed my brain up so much that if someone said let’s get high or I thought I should get high, I truly believed that I could not, not do that. I had no hope that it was even possible until one day it was snowing in the city and so we let out early because there’s going to be a big snow storm and I was on the bus.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
It was snowing so bad. I didn’t use the bus. I just walked to the subway. But I got on the bus, get to the subway. Got on the bus, the door is closed and my brain thought, okay, we’re definitely going to be out of work for four days, you should get high. And for the first time ever, there was this moment of you don’t have to do this. You can do something else.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I’d been in program long enough that it was beginning to get programmed. Now I actually ended up getting high that weekend, but I can look back on that moment as a moment that there could be hope. But until that point, what people just don’t understand is that the addiction is so much stronger than you. And also depending on your drug of choice, I remember in rehab when they found out that I was a crystal meth addict, literally the clinician was like, “Good luck.”
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Because it’s such a mental addiction. It’s not even if people with heroin addiction, they’re like giving them methadone. They’re like, “Just sit over there and try to control your thoughts.” And I’m like, “What?” There’s the addiction is so strong that until you find a way to get the pull to be just a little less, it’s like, why am I doing this? What is the point of this? Because I’m just in a f’ing hamster wheel.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Right. I’m sure that the person was real motivator. Good luck.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Good luck.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Good luck. Well, you’re sure f’ed.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Pretty much. [inaudible 00:38:46].
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah. Thanks, that’s really helpful. Yeah, I think a lot of people and a lot of families, right, watching the process, watching people get sober, they… If I’m the family and you’re on that bus that weekend, and you think that to yourself, and then you go get high, I’m not thinking that’s progress as the family member, right?
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
I’m going, “No, you f’ing got high this weekend.” You got high that weekend. You’re not making progress. And what I think is so great to talk about that moment is you look back at that moment and the fact that there was that space in between those two things happening, that’s progress even if you ended up using that weekend. I was talking to a friend yesterday about confronting a friend of hers who’s in the midst of addiction.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
And she’s saying, I think I’m the first person that’s ever said, Hey, I’m really concerned about your drinking. I don’t want to be around it, etc. And I said, “Look,” and she said, “Well, what’s the resolution?” And I said, “There is no resolution except that at some point when this person does decide to get help, they will look back. They’ll remember this, that experience is lodged in their head.”
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
I remember the first time someone said, you have a problem. That doesn’t mean that I stopped doing it or even after the first, going to treatment or whatever, it is a process. What was the process like in your brain as a crystal meth addict, what was the process like of your brain changing from that weekend where you had that space, but you still used to putting some time together?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
It was definitely; I wish I’d kept on my white chips because I could tell the driveway. But I did not. Alas I did not. It was a revolving door there for a while and also crystal meth is so tied to sex it’s because it enhances your pleasure senses. And really crystal meth is a mental addiction. There’s nothing physically addictive about it. There’s no withdrawal. You’re just shaking because you’ve been awake for five days.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
It was a lot of white knuckling. My dog who is no longer with us, but his name was Fabulous, Fabby. Yeah. There were definitely moments in my apartment in New York city just laying in bed, holding this dog and I really believe that he knew what was going on. And he was with me until life got better and then he got cancer, but there were just moments of clutching Fabby because the paw was so strong.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
It really did take a couple of many of those for the hope that I could have hope. And that’s what that moment did. And you’re so right, that from the outside world that will be seen as a failure, but that was the first moment that I actually believed that there could be hope. I didn’t have any, but I believed that there could be. And it took that for me to be able to eventually turn the corner into finding some semblance of sobriety.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
I would see these people getting sober relatively quickly or without relapse and that was so hard for me to watch these people like, I was struck sober. Whatever, I was just done. My husband, I was just like, he doesn’t have cravings. He like, that was it. It was just, something happened. Something changed in his brain. And here I am falling on my face constantly.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
I’m 15 years sober and I still, sometimes I’m like, Jesus, what is in there that’s just… What happens here? There is a feeling of being in that revolving door and taking that chip and taking that chip that just even though theoretically you’re making progress because you’re creating this habit of going back to the place because you know where the solution is, there is this feeling of it is very painful to feel like, maybe I’m one of those people who just doesn’t make it.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Doesn’t get it.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
And I just don’t, and I need the people… For those of us who have that experience, I need people like you and like me to share about how many times it took so that I needed those people to tell me, “Ashley.” I was the last person anyone thought would get sober. I came here a hundred million times. I came here loaded. I came here and went [inaudible 00:43:33]. I needed to hear that because I was so like, what the f is wrong with me? And then also you have the world looking at you going, “What the f is wrong with you?”
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Yeah, 100%. Now I do want to say for me as well that there’s this saying, and if you’ve been in program for more than a hot second you’ve heard it, we’re just going to put everything on the shelf. We’re going to put everything else on the shelf. We’re just going to focus on the drugs. Okay. That was never going to work for me because I had an undiagnosed mental illness.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Not only am I trying to get sober, my head is loud and they just kept saying, the farther you get from the drug… And listen, I don’t hold any ill will. It is not the job of the 12 step program wherever you go to provide therapeutic support. But it might’ve been helpful a little sooner than it was to be like, “Maybe you should go talk to someone.”
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
But when you find yourself in these rooms and I’m sure people right now are like, “What is this guy talking about?” But you sign yourself in these rooms and these big book thumpers they’re like, the solution is right here. Okay. Yes, the solution to this issue is here. The solution to my mental illness is nowhere in the big book, is not in the big book at all.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Well, it is. It actually is. It says go seek outside.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Go seek… Yeah. Yes.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
It actually is. It’s just not referenced enough.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
That is true. I accept the amendments.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
I have big books-
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
[Crosstalk 00:44:57]. You did [inaudible 00:44:59] damn.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
[Crosstalk 00:45:02]. I can’t tell you what page.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I don’t know but the point stands, I wasn’t going to get better, truly better until I sought professional help. And they were like, “We need to get you on some medicine because you literally are talking to people.” But the problem was because I was a meth addict, they just-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
[crosstalk 00:45:23]. It’s very depressing.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
They just, “Is he hallucinating or is this a medical condition?” And for a while there, we didn’t know. They just kept throwing stuff at me, trying to see what was going on. And until I really, really got honest about the fact that I hear voices in my head, until I really, really hear I was honest about the fact that I’ve tried to take my life. Those are all things that I was trying to keep in this little bitty [inaudible 00:45:47] all over in the corner, we’re not going to deal with that and allow people professionals to help me. I didn’t get better.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I would put time, I’ll put a couple of years together and then here we go again and it didn’t make any sense because everyone’s like, “This should be working.” And I’m like, “Well, we’ve got other problems going on.”
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
One thing I want to touch on about this, and then I want to ask you about the diagnoses. One thing is that I can tell you from the other end of the spectrum, which was that I was put in treatment as a young adult where they do try to treat them pretty close together, right after detox. I went to a lot of different facilities and diagnosed with a lot of different things and given a shit ton of medicine, none of which, or I shouldn’t say none, but most of which was inaccurate and totally related to the drug use.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
There is this decoupling that happens and I think finding that space of, “Okay, we’ve decoupled now we need…” And also, if you’re working with someone who’s in the weeds with you on the decoupling, they can start to say like, “Okay, it’s still happening. Okay, it’s still happening.” I think that there’s some place in the middle of really working with people as they’re pulling the drugs out of the system and paying attention to, and getting that feedback and finding what is there as they’re decoupling and what’s the space and I’m sure there are plenty of people who do do that, but it can go either way.
PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [0:47:22]
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Like, “No, there’s no problem. It’s just related to this.” Or it’s, “You’re detoxing from cocaine, you have bipolar.” No, I’m f’ing detoxing. That’s the thing. Were you diagnosed with Schizoaffective? What’s your diagnosis?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
That’s what they thought and so, they gave me Lamictal, which gave me a drug rash.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
You got the rash? That’s the infamous rash. Everyone’s like, “Check for the rash every morning. Check for the rush.”
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
One dose and my entire body was covered in hives.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
No.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
It was not fine. And then in my second rehab, we really dug into it more. And I do understand that we, as human beings, we have voices in our heads, our inner voice talks. We talk to ourselves. I’m a little step down the road than that, but she also said, “At this point in your life, you have learned to manage this really well. We can try to medicate this, but it’s going to change your personality.” And I’m like, “No.” I know who they are. We kiki, it’s fine. She was like, “Are they telling you to harm anybody?” And I was like, “No, we’re not doing that.” She was like, “Okay.”
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Were they other people?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I don’t know. It’s just-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Because, the reason I ask, I was so f’ing relieved when I found out that I was a drug addict and alcoholic, because I was sure I was like, “F, there’s things talking to me in my head.” And I was like, “This is not good. If they find out about this, we’re in trouble.” I’d already been to the psych ward just as a result of drugs.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Same.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
I was like, “I don’t want to end up there.” I was super relieved to find out that my own voice talking to me was normal.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Was normal.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
And it had just been gotten really loud.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Loud.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
And that, that was normal. So when you say voices, I talk about the itty bitty shitty committee, or the voices in our head or K f Radio being turned up really loud. What’s different?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
It’s a little bit different than-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
What does it feel like?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
You’re getting deep on this one.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
I want to know.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
There are definitely other personality types up there that are vying for my attention. And I used to listen and talk to them. I used to be engaged and now I just don’t.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
In your head?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
In my head. Yeah. Well, I would talk to them out loud because I would hear them.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
But you knew they weren’t there right? Or no? You weren’t sure.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
When I wasn’t high, I was, I did. When I was high, I just assumed that anybody else could hear them too and they were like, “What is wrong with that guy?”
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
No.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
It’s a bit different than the shitty committee. I understand the shitty committee. I understand that, but that’s what I’m saying is that when I’m dealing with the shitty committee and these external voices-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
My God.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Yeah.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Are they ever helpful? Are they other… Or do they-
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
They’re going to town right now because we’re focusing on them, but usually I can drown them out because I’m used to it now, but then he-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Where are they staying right now?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Well, they’re not really happy that we’re talking about them. I feel crazy right now, which is okay. It’s okay. It’s helping other people.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
You’re the feelings guy.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Yeah. Well, I’m in touch with them. The way I like to explain to people, we all have those voices that say, “You can’t do this.” Or, “You’ll never be okay. You’ll never be good enough.”
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yes.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Mine have different voices. It’s not, you’re hearing yourself talking in your head, it’s literally someone else is talking to you, which in the beginning was very disconcerting, now it’s just like, “Okay, well.”
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Did it start as a kid?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I don’t remember. I get asked that a lot. I don’t remember. I’m guessing it did. I don’t know. I really don’t know.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
It’s always been there?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I don’t ever remember not knowing.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
And so, you’ve made the decision with your mental health providers not to medicate them?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Yeah. No. I do take medicine for major depressive disorder. I do also have clinical depression, but I made the decision that when I put enough stuff in my body, I do know how to manage them. And actually just, that saying like, “You’re only sick as your secrets” I never really told anybody yet. And so, even just telling someone, because I had the same thing. I was like, “I am not going back to a psych ward. That’s not happening.” So I didn’t talk about it.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
You’re like, “I know this is a one-way ticket.”
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
It was. And so, just talking about it, literally the volume turned down because-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
It’s kind of how it is with addiction.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
The power wasn’t contained here anymore. Like I had, I have the power. I had it a little bit.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
How many people have you come in contact with through sharing this who’ve been like, “I have them too.”?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Dozens. People reach out and say, “Thank you for giving voice.” Because a lot of people also very much resonate with, we shouldn’t put everything else on the shelf. Okay. For some people that works. There’s got to be another path and that’s why I love our girl, Arlina, because there has to be another path. There has to be some other way to get this done and I didn’t discover that until much, much later in the process.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
And I would imagine that was very, very painful. How did you… Let me rephrase. What part do you think that adoption played, if any, in your recovery?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
A lot. I was doing a podcast interview the other day and I always say that it’s surprising, but not surprising. In both of my rehabs, there were a good quarter, if not more of the people who were adopted and all adopted at different parts of our lives, some as infants, some as children, some as teenagers, but there’s so much there that is just not dealt with that you just carry it around, you carry it around, you carry… And then you try drugs and alcohol and you’re like, “This fixes it.” My parents did their absolute best. They didn’t know any different, but yeah, there’s definitely a piece of it there, for sure.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Do you think there’s, whether cognitive, truly cognitive or not a piece that never feels right as a result of the bio parents or the bio mom, probably that separation, they call it the primal wound. Is their voice to that even if you don’t remember?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Yeah, absolutely. I was never truly whole, and then I become a part of this family, but now there’s this huge secret that if they ever know that I’m going to lose this family too. It was like a double whammy coming at me.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Right. I didn’t even think of that. You’re right. That fear of abandon.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Yeah. My first drug was imagination to just escape in my brain that something has to be better than this. Living…
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Do you know there’s, it’s now called dissociative identity disorder DID, but it used to be called multiple personalities and I’ve interviewed a couple people who have this tremendous trauma and you talk about the religious trauma and all the stacking of your traumas and frankly, the trauma that you don’t remember, which from one to two or zero to two, which to me I’m sure is alive and well in your neurons even if you don’t remember. And one of the things that can happen with that is that this creation of other personalities in order to deal with those things.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Now in DID, the person, their brain literally flips into that, but I wonder, and this is just armchair theory. I wonder, because you don’t remember when they came online, I wonder if the personalities, you don’t actually like turn into them, but I wonder if they came on as the ability to couch each of those things in a way that was like, if you were… Because I’m imagining a young kid dealing with adoption, dealing with gay, Southern Baptist, all these things and fear of being truly abandoned, you actually were afraid when your adoptive parents left the room.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
All of those things to me, that could be this really big coping skill and something that you’ve actually learned to live with and work with in somewhat of a positive way.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Yeah, no, that all makes complete sense. I accept that armchair potential theory, and we talked about some of that, because when I went to my second rehab, I was older and much more educated and so I was able to have different conversations with the therapists and what was going on. And we tried to do regression therapy and I was like, “This is enough for me.” I was like, “We need to stop this. We need to stop this.”
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Immediately.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Unless this isn’t a government rehab. Yeah, that all makes complete sense and they could have shown up to very much like, watching A Beautiful Mind, I completely relate to that movie. They could have shown up to be friends and to be support. That’s very possible, but I don’t remember.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
You talk about being the feelings guy.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Mm-hmm (Affirmative).
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Tell me about your foundation and what your life’s work and your recovery looks like today, as it relates to what does being the feeling guy look like?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
The feelings guy was an accident that is like a lot of things in life, but a great accident. I had begun this journey of self-rediscovery. I went back to rehab again late in life because the demon showed up again. That’s when I really got honest about all the stuff, but then I was like, “Why am I waking up not happy? What is going on here? Why can’t I just get this together?” And then I guess about six months after that, the pandemic hit. And I realized that people were saying like, “Hey, how’s it going?” And I’m like, “Are you nuts right now? How’s it going?”
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
My whole business dr… I’d just started the business. I haven’t worked in months. What are you talking about? And so, I created this campaign called 5onthe5, which happens on May 5th, and it was all about asking people, how are you feeling? And it blew up in a good way. And somebody said, “You’re supposed to be the feelings guy.” And I was like, “Okay.” I was like, “Wait, maybe I should.” And so, I guess about six months before then maybe, six, eight, nine months, I really started like digging into what are these things called feelings and emotions?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I’m like, “What is this?” All of these things that you do not learn in program? This is not part of the process, but they’re there. And I discovered that or realized I had this huge personality. And even as I grew into being totally comfortable in my skin, I was still pushing it down. Well, that pushing it down was making me not happy. And now I just lean into feelings and I know all about feelings now, before I didn’t know that there was no such thing as a good feeling or a bad feeling, just a feeling. I didn’t know what feelings actually were in your body and we just…
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
All this stuff that is just not talked about and I was like, “We about to talk about this shit.” Whatever audience it’s for, whether it’s high school or college or corporate America, taking the concept of feelings. And I have this program called Feelings Based Leadership that I do in corporate America, which is the antithesis of what they want you to do. I was in corporate America. They were like, “We don’t do feelings.” I’m like, “Okay, sure.” Letting them know how to lean into these things and learn from these things and love these things and also be a little bit in of control of that.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
There are parts of that, that we can control, it is a natural body reaction, but we can still have some way we react to it. It’s really funny when I launched Archie Cares, which is my business today. I assumed I was going to be the drug guy, I assumed I was going to be the guy that people call to talk about the story and I do that a lot, but I would say 90% of my business now is mental health stuff. I have found a way to have conversations about mental health with all ages that it is not boring and that they lean in and they get stuff and we talk about suicide prevention and they don’t freak out.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
That has become more of my lane these days.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
What trends are you seeing? What are you seeing out there in the world as you’re having these 90% mental health conversations?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
That’s a great question. There was this article that recently came out in The Atlantic, which I totally disagree with. I’m just going to go on record. The title of the article is, The Pandemic Didn’t Affect Our Mental Health Like You Thought It Did. The premise of the article is that, what they equated was times of war and the pandemic. But you have to read to figure that out. What they were saying is just like in times of war, humans can overcome, they can rise to the occasion.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Okay. I get that. But to say that based upon some research you did that it did not affect our mental health, the way that you thought it did. Well, then you haven’t talked to the hundreds of college students that I talked to, who all said it did. That is the only place that I can find where the data isn’t off the charts that especially young people are experiencing anxiety and depression at higher levels than ever before. Allegedly.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Wait. The Atlantic said that it didn’t think that this caused a major mental health crisis?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Yeah. They did some research; I’m not going to put poo on these people. They did their research and they said they were also looking for some things. I just think that the original premise is flawed.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Got it. Okay.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
That’s my opinion.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
It’s just a very bizarre thing to say given all the research.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
A very bizarre thing to say, yeah.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
50% women, the instances of female cirrhosis in young women went up 50%.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Well, there you go.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
50%. Just that. Just that.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
The numbers are off the charts, especially with young people. And I’ve been equating it to a dragon that in the heart of the pandemic, we were focused on the fire and the teeth. Of course, we were, but the tail’s coming and if we’re not paying attention that tail’s going to… That’s why I’m over here screaming, can we please talk about feelings? Because here’s the thing. If I was like, “Hey, Ashley, how are you doing today?” You’ll be like, “I’m fine.” Which is a complete lie, but if I were to say, “Hey, Ashley, how are you feeling today?”
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Guaranteed, you’re going to go, ” Huh, well.” Because we’re just not trained to talk about feelings. And so, one of my missions in life is to encourage people, beg people, implore to stop saying, “How are you today?” Because what we really mean is hi. We really just mean hi. We don’t really care. We just mean hi. For those of us that do care and I believe there’s a lot of you listening that care, ask the question that shows that you care. Say, how are you feeling? And you’re going to get some, “Why? Why do you want to know? What’s going on?”
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
You’re going to get some of those, but then people are going to start answering. And what I personally love doing is when someone says, “Hey Archie, how are you doing today?” A friend called me today and I said, “I am hopeful, a little worried and tired.” And he went, “Oh, okay.” Which in that okay, it was like, “I didn’t care.” That’s what we’re saying there, but I am going to show up for myself. If someone else decides not to show up for me, I’m going to show up for myself. I’m going to talk about how I feel.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
And I’m going to normalize having these feelings because people are hurting, so give people a chance to actually share.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Should people do that in line at Starbucks?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Girl, I was about to tell you, I do it at Starbucks. Now, listen, but some people that may be a little far, they’re like, “Hi, can take your order.” And I’m like, “You can, but how are you feeling?” And they’re like, “Sir, can I take your order?” They’re telling me, “I’m done with you.”
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Exactly.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
And some of them know me now and they’re like, “I’m okay.” Like, whatever. I understand that like it’s conversational, but what happens is that conversational polite bullshit that we do bleeds over into our life. And we do it at our spouses and our partners and our kids. I love the fact that our child is like, “Are you happy?” And I’m like, “Well, Kade, I’m actually sad.” “Papa is sad?” He knows feeling words because we’re big on feelings in this house, but that’s not normal. It’s not normal for a boy to be big on feelings and we should be. We should be.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
We do these feelings in our house and I have a kid who he expresses a lot of anger and he’s like, “I am so frustrated. I have feelings of frustration.” And you’re just like… You’re like, “This is a really good feeling, buddy. But just the… It feels rude in here, it’s just-
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I love it. I love it.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
It’s great, but when you watch it, you recognize how abnormal that is.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I love it though.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
How are you reaching the people in these 90%? Are you mostly going and doing talks with them and, do you do mentorship? What kind of stuff are you offering?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
The former. I really don’t want to be a coach. I got enough problems of my own, and I thought about when people are like, “You’d be a great coach.” And I’m like, “That’s not what I want to do.” Right now a lot of my stuff is virtual. Everything is changing to the fall, but whether it’s a keynote or whether it’s a workshop, whether it’s a small group facilitation where we can dig into different feelings, different things. There for a couple of months I was talking to this green light every night. I was booked, which is great. It’s great to be working again.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I don’t do one-on-one stuff. I don’t want to be a therapist. I don’t want to be a coach. I am really good at coming in and laying a foundation. And there’s some companies where we have a long-term thing and so I’ll circle back around. I’ll give them prompts and things like that. I’ll do that. I’ll give you a plan or I’ll do a one and done. If people want a one and done, I’ll do a one and done, but I’m so open and everyone has all my information and so, I’m constantly putting up things on Instagram that are encouraging people and helping people. I try to share the message, even if they don’t hire me.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Are you interested in doing any things that reach children who are growing up Baptist who might be gay and trying to reach that particular population? I just wonder if there’s a, I’m sure there’s lots of people doing it, but if there’s a way to reach that group of people, who’s going through that trauma and let them know that there’s some lifeline there.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
That’s awesome. I get people referred to me a lot. People are like, “Can you talk to this guy? Can you talk to this girl? Can you talk to this?” And I’m like, “Sure.” I’m not a therapist and I tell them that upfront and I’ll just say, this is my experience very much like what we do in program. Here’s my experience. This is what works for me, but I think for a lot… I have found, especially when I speak to high school students, I’ll get messages afterwards. “I had no idea that you could be gay and be like you.” That I have a husband and I have a child, but I’m also still fun.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I’m gay, but I’m living this life that they only see with their parents who’s a man and a woman. I think that even just showing up and being myself is helping people. And that took a while for my head to wrap around that, that just being this person that I was meant to be feelings and all is what people needed.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
All of that. Last question for you. What are some things that you do, I’ll just give you an example. For me, it can show up as wanting to drink, but it’s ultimately all of the things that often comes down to anxiety, and the physical anxiety, not, “I can’t breathe and not knowing what to do.” And there are a couple, I have a short list of things that I do. One is push-ups, one is situps. I’ll literally drop down and do pushups. Get the endorphins going. One is I was taught to make and unmake my bed until I don’t want to drink anymore. This is what I was taught in the beginning.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
And let me tell you by the second time you make your bed, you’re like, “F it. I won’t drink. I don’t want to do this bed anymore.” Do you have a short list of things that you… A practical, I love practical things that you do when you are like, “I can’t breathe.” The anxiety is too big.?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I’ve never said this on a podcast, so here you go. When I was first trying to get sober again, because crystal meth and sex are so tied together, my sponsor, I can’t believe I’m saying this, my sponsor and I had this rule that if I felt like I wanted to use, if [inaudible 01:08:45] we call it the three fist rule. If you can jack off three times and you still want to use, then go get high. Edit this out.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
No. It’s amazing. F it. Whatever keeps you sober just don’t do-
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
And it wasn’t possible by the third time, number one, you’re exhausted. You’re exhausted. It takes so long and then all the allure is gone away and then you’re just asleep. I never actually got past the third time and went to use.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
There you have it.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Now listen, that is not endorsed by the-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
[crosstalk 01:09:17].
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
[crosstalk 01:09:17] book but we had to get creative with Archie and it worked. I don’t necessarily do that anymore, but that was one of the first things that I tried. And I think for me now, again, because my head starts spinning, like I’m going to be traveling and blah, blah, blah. I just have to talk about it. I’m going to talk about it right then, we’re going to talk about it. I also do take walks because I’m like, “No, stop people.” I’ll take a walk. I really haven’t tried the sit ups and the pushups, that may be why I’m 20 pounds heavier than when the pandemic started.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
COVID-20, came right over here. Not the COVID-19, the COVID-20 came right here.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
The bonus episode coming in hot. 20.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I’m for reals. Yeah, I guess those are-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
No. Those are good. I love it. No, I think, look we have to figure out people are like, “You pray, you meditate.” It’s like, “Look, I’m about to f’ing walk out the door and ruin my life. What do I do? What do I do? What are the things?” And if that means you have to jack off three times in the corner, then that’s what you got to do.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Listen friends, if there’s a crystal meth addict listening and you’re trying to get it, try the three hand method, try the three…
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
I’m just saying.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
I never could make it work, by the third time I was all splotchy and [inaudible 01:10:35], there was no-
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Yeah, there we go.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
There was no going to get high after that.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
That’s what I mean. It’s not sexy, but these are-
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
It is not.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
These are the things we have to do to stay sober, whatever it is. I love it. Well, thank you so much, Archie. Where can people find you and reach out to you?
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
You can find everything on the website, which is archiecares.com. The place that I’m most active in is Instagram, which is @archie_ cares.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
Okay. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here.
Archie Messersmith-Bunting:
Thank you. It’s been great.
Ashley Loeb Blassingame:
This podcast is sponsored by lionrock.life. lionrock.life is a recovery community offering free online support group meetings, useful recovery information and entertainment. Visit www.lionrock.life to view the meeting schedule and find additional resources. Find the joy in recovery at lionrock.life.
PART 4 of 4 ENDS [1:11:30]
Ashley Jo is one of the producers of The Courage to Change: A Recovery Podcast team. With over a decade of experience working with C-level executives and directing corporate training events, she brings extensive production experience to Lionrock. In early 2020, she made a significant career change and stepped into the realm of podcasting.
Her recovery experience includes substance abuse, codependency, grief and loss, and sexual assault and trauma. Ashley Jo enjoys supporting others in recovery by connecting with people and being a leader. She shared her story in Season 3, Episode 92 of The Courage to Change.