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May 11
  • Written By Ashley Jo Brewer

    • #98 – Charles M Henderson Jr

    #98 - Charles M Henderson Jr

    Charles’ Story

    Growing up in Tuckahoe, New York, Charles M. Henderson Jr. went from being a teenage heroin addict and high school dropout, to becoming a Harvard graduate with an MBA in general management. His life experience inspired him to work as a change agent serving as the Executive Director, Co-Founder, Educator, and Executive Coach for Heroin to Harvard, an organization that transforms managers into leaders through active training and executive coaching. His work is anchored in research on emotional intelligence, social intelligence, rational intelligence, and behavioral economics.

    Charles’ professional experience includes work with leaders at Citibank, Standard Bank, The World Bank, International Finance Corporation, and Nike in the US, Africa, Asia, and Europe. Charles currently resides in South Africa and spends his time between Johannesburg and New York. Prior to his time in South Africa Charles worked as a risk analyst with JPMorgan Chase on Wall Street.

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    Episode Transcript

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Hello, beautiful people. Welcome to The Courage to Change: A Recovery Podcast. My name is Ashley Loeb Blassingame, and I am your host. Today we have my friend Charles Henderson, Jr. Oh man. This is such a great episode.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    So Charles grew up in Tuckahoe, New York. He went from being a teenage heroin addict and high school dropout to becoming a Harvard graduate with an MBA in general management. His life experience inspired him to work as a change agent serving as the executive director, co-founder, educator, and executive coach for Heroin to Harvard, an organization that transforms managers into leaders through active training and executive coaching. His work is anchored in research on emotional intelligence, social intelligence, rational intelligence, and behavioral economics.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Charles’s professional experience includes work with leaders Citibank, Standard Bank, The World Bank, International Finance Corporation, and Nike in the U.S., Africa, Asia, and Europe. Charles currently resides in South Africa and spends his time between Johannesburg and New York. Prior to his time in South Africa, Charles worked as a risk analyst with JPMorgan Chase on Wall Street.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    This episode is just one that is near and dear to my heart because Charles and I explore this idea of imposter syndrome and what drives us. Charles had an experience with my father that was pivotal for him, and it’s just a beautiful walkthrough of what can happen when we get sober, when we get help and also talking about how we can show each other our humanity and honesty and how that removes all the barriers that are normally up between two people, prestige, achievement, money, whatever, status, all those things and how that can be melted away and that substances are the great equalizer and this is a perfect example of that.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    So Charles is an incredible man and is doing incredible work, and I just was so grateful that we found time to be able to speak and coordinate with him in South Africa. So without further ado, I give you my friend Charles Henderson, Jr. Episode 98. Let’s do this.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    You are listening to The Courage to Change: A Recovery Podcast. We’re a community of recovering people who have overcome the odds and found the courage to change. Each week we share stories of recovery from substance abuse, eating disorders, grief and loss, childhood trauma, and other life-changing experiences. Come join us no matter where you are on your recovery journey.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Flies on the wall.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Flies on the wall to make sure I don’t say anything that gets me canceled.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    You have to be careful. We are in that cancel culture-

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I’m the worst.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    … My goodness.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Oh, I’m the worst. I’m the worst. I get so nervous when I’m recording anything live. I’m like, “I’m going to be canceled.”

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    I don’t worry in South Africa, but every time I have to deal with the Americans, because I’m in South Africa. Everybody’s relaxed down here.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    So sometimes I’ll be talking to my business partners on the U.S. side, and they’ll say something like, “Charles, you know you can’t say that, right? You can say that with us, but you can’t say that, right?” I say, “Oh really. I can’t say that? Oh okay.”

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah. It’s a whole other thing over here and it’s terrifying. So, okay. Let’s get this part-tay started. All right. I have your notes.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    So first and foremost, I just want to start… Oh, I know what I want to start off with. So I want to start off with, so in season three, instituted this new thing where the first thing we start with is an old picture. I try to get it to be a bad haircut, but I’m learning that a lot of people didn’t have bad haircuts so we’re just going to have to go with the childhood and old photo.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    We didn’t take pictures of the bad haircut or we disposed of those photos immediately.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Right. And you could do that then because you didn’t have cell phones with cameras, but I have this picture of you. This is the one. It’ll be on the Instagram with this episode. So tell me about what is going on in this photo.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    So that’s a photo of me and one of my best friends who is still today one of my best friends. His name is Lurch. Well, that’s his nickname.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    That’s such a great nickname.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    He has a gravelly voice. But his real name is Gary, Gary Gregory. He doesn’t mind if I use his name. And that was at the heart of the heroin years. Me and my man, Gary. In fact, we were together when I got busted on the crime that actually sent me into drug rehabilitation. That was probably shortly before that happened, that photograph.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    This looks very 1970s, is it?

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Yeah ’70… That’s probably ’77, circa 1977.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    ’77. All right, what are you smoking? Did you roll that cigarette yourself? What are we working with?

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    No. Kool Super Longs or Kool Extra Longs. I can’t remember what they were.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I take it that’s a menthol situation.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Yes, it is.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I love menthols. Love me some menthols. It’s not the coolest cigarette I’ve ever smoked, but I do love them.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    You’re saying Kool wasn’t the coolest cigarette. I mean really, come on.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Kool wasn’t the coolest cigarettes. Well, I don’t know. I got teased endlessly for smoking menthols because I was just not… Apparently, that’s not hardcore, but I just loved menthols. And did your boy, did he get in trouble with you when you were arrested? You got sent away, did he get sent away?

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    He did actually and he got sent away… We were arrested for possession of stolen property. Now, this was jewelry basically that we went to take to a jeweler that he had sold jewelry to in the past. And the guy had some heat on him, the jeweler, and he basically turned us in to get the heat off of him.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    But my friend, Gary, he was just with me. I actually burglarized a house one morning, sick from withdrawal symptoms, by myself and I called him. So we went together and both because he was with me, we were both charged with the felony of possession of stolen property. He did a year-

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    F.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    … in county pen for that and he could have told on me. He could have said, “Charles robbed the house, not me.” He could’ve spilled the beans, but he didn’t.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Why didn’t he spill the beans because you were going away anyway, so?

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Because that was my boy. He still is.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Right.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    That was the classic prisoner’s dilemma. Tell on your friend, and you get a get-out-of-jail-free card. In fact-

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    But you were going either way.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Well, yes, but they didn’t have me for burglary. They only had me for possession.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Got it. Okay.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    So they were trying to get two charges for burglary as well.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I see.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    And they even flipped it. A few days after… He was sent to jail, he couldn’t make bail. My mother bailed me out, and he had been in trouble before so I think his bail was more than mine because he already had a criminal record. A few days after he went away, the chief of police called me, had me picked up and brought down. He was trying to solve other crimes and he basically offered me a deal. If you could help me solve some of these other crimes in the neighborhood; I’ll give you a get-out-of-jail-free card. Some of those crimes were my man Lurch.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    There was one that he was dying to solve and I was right there before it happened. I knew it. I could have been the eyewitness that would have sent him away but I refused. I said, “Hey, listen, I can’t help you.” Now, mind you, I was offered reduce the felony to a misdemeanor and one-year probation. I was offered that deal as opposed to keeping the felony. And then left Tuckahoe, which is a small town in Westchester I grew up in, and I ended up in White Plains, the county court and that’s when I got ultimately hit with 30 days and two years in drug rehab. That’s how the whole thing happened.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    So my man Lurch, we were together in lockstep. That wasn’t the only time we were in that situation.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Okay. So that makes much more sense. It wasn’t just like this one. That’s how I think about it. This is totally sober girl in L.A. bullshit but when I get a parking ticket in L.A. or whatever, in my head I just count it as like, “Oh, well they caught me this time and this is for all the other times I didn’t get caught, whatever. I’ll just pay this shit.” You throw it in the bucket. Just whatever.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I think that we all have those relationships, and it’s really interesting to me that… My mom always told me, there’s no honor among thieves. She would always tell me that. But that wasn’t always my experience. And I think that there’s some truth to that, but that wasn’t my experience and I think what you’re describing is different than just two criminals. This is a lifestyle, a way of life. A life that you’re born into, something that happens. This community that you live in together and you care deeply about that community and just because you have veered off the straight and narrow, so to speak, does not mean that you have no honor within you whatsoever. Some people are going to say, “Well, it’s not honorable to not tell about crimes, but there’s levels. There’s levels of honor.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Well, no one got shot, killed, beat up. You understand?

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    There was no physical harm. All of my friends were non-violent criminals. We just wanted to get high basically. In fact, I never had an encounter with an individual. I burglarized homes where nobody was there and on one occasion, the people came home while we were in the house, man and we jumped out the window and ran for the hills. We weren’t trying, Ashley. We were just kids, lost and confused, sick from this addiction and we just wanted to get high. That was it. We didn’t want to hurt anyone.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    So tell me about the home that you grew up in. You grew up in Harlem?

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    No. So I spent a lot of my teenage years using drugs, buying drugs in Harlem but I grew up in Westchester County.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    That’s right. How do you say the name, Tuckahoe?

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    T-U-C-K-A-H-O-E, Tuckahoe, New York, which is not even a town. It’s a village.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Oh, it’s a village.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    There’s only a few thousand people in the whole village, but it’s a quaint little village. It’s right next door to Bronxville, which as you may know, is one of the richest suburbs in the U.S. A lot of Wall Street executives and CEOs and CFOs, all the C-suite people that work in New York that don’t want to live in New York, they all live in Westchester. So Bronxville is one of those little towns. I grew up in a housing project, literally in Tuckahoe there’s a housing project and literally, I could look out of my window and see across the fence that separated Tuckahoe from Bronxville.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Wow.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Crazy, right?

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    That is crazy. And the housing project, tell me about living in a housing project. What is that experience like? When people are like, “Oh, I’m in a project.” Do people know what that means? Did you always live in that project?

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    So my mother and father moved in with me when I was two. Prior to that, I lived across the street in the basement apartment that my father lived in when my mother and him got married. So when my brother was born, when I was two, then that place was just too small and they were low income. So below a certain income, you could qualify to move into the housing project where the government subsidizes the rent basically. So I grew up there from the age of two in the same apartment until I left home.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Wow.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Now this project, when people talk about housing projects, it’s such a big range, Ashley.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Okay. That was my question. What am I picturing here?

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    You always see on TV, New Jack City, right?

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    You see these housing projects in these movies where it’s just horrendous.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    It’s a shooting gallery. It’s just gnarly.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Yeah. And I hung out at some of those projects in Harlem. Saint Nick projects, which was on Eighth Avenue, well, between Eighth and Seventh. It was a whole city block between Eighth Avenue, Seventh Avenue, 120 Sixth Street, and 120 Seventh. I believe it ran up to 28th. Now those projects were different.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Those projects were drug-infested. I would go in there sometimes with people that I knew who lived in the area and we would use drugs together. Man, let me tell you; I would not have wanted to grow up like that. Now that being said, there’s still growing up in any housing project, you’re growing up in an environment where there are very few highly educated people. So there were no role models. I didn’t know anyone who graduated from college in my housing project.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Anyone. No one.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Not one single person. No parents.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Were your parents… What was their highest level of education?

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    My mother graduated from commerce high school in Yonkers, which was a quote-unquote “non-academic high school.” She was trained to be a secretary and that’s what she did pretty much all her life. And my father, he did attend Westchester Community College for a while and that was before my mother got pregnant with my brother and the story goes like this. Once she got pregnant, then he decided to quit because he needed to work to support the kids but I don’t really know the real story.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    You’re not buying it.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Especially what I knew of my father. It just didn’t… But he was a very responsible… He worked. Very responsible in that way and he believed in hard work. He had his alcohol thing going for many years, weekend warrior type of person, and there were troubles on the home front in part because of that. They divorced when I was about eight.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    So that created a situation there where my mother has two boys that she’s raising on her own. He got remarried, moved to Yonkers. So me and my brother would go for weekends to spend with him and his new family, which was cool because his second wife had three kids, one my age, one older, one younger. I enjoyed going over there. Janet was the ideal stepmother. Janet [Bosewain 00:17:01], that was her name before they got married. But she was the ideal stepmother. I loved her. I still love her.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    But being home and then growing up in that environment where there are drugs, where all the parents have to work. So the kids are coming home. And my mother is not at home, imagine. And there’s no discipline in the house and she’s struggling to hold it together. Eventually, the kids go one to two ways, and I went the wrong way. I took a left when I should have took a right.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    What do you think the difference between the kids who like what you saw… Just to your project, your housing project, what do you think the difference between the kids who went left and the kids who went right so to speak, and obviously, this is a massive generalization, but what do you think the difference was? How did that pan out?

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Ashley, it’s hard to pinpoint it. Now I understand the research suggests that single-parent homes, kids who were raised in single-parent homes, and when they say that they generally mean the mother, right?

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah, it takes a lot for us to leave our kids.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Yeah, tend to have more problems, behavioral problems. They tend to have more problems with the law. They tend to be more inclined to use drugs. So that’s a statistical phenomenon that researchers have observed.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Now, that being said, one of my friends that I grew up with who grew up in a single home, was a straight-A student. He went to college after he graduated. Everybody looked up to him. I asked him, I said, “Ray, how did you do that?” His name is Ray Edwards. I said, “Ray, how did you do that?” years later after I cleaned up. We still remained friends. And he told me that he was identified in elementary school as having unusual reading skills by one of his teachers and she put him in the gifted class for reading. And as a result, he got special attention in school. And he just stayed in advanced classes all the way through until he graduated. That’s interesting, huh?

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah. And I’ve heard that statistic too. That kids who are praised or told… That we put into kids’ heads, very much at a young age, what we think they’ll be able to achieve and it’s interesting. I was told I could do whatever I wanted to, I could do it all, and now I’m trying to do it all and it’s very stressful, but because I was told that I believe I can. There’s the upside and the downside.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    But they say that very much about what teachers and what… They did these double-blind studies where they had kids who were told that they were good at something and then kids who were told they weren’t and they were at the exact same level and the ones who were told they were going to do well, did well. And then they switched them and same result. The kids who were told they were going to do well, did well. And very, very interesting how much that matters.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Carol Dweck wrote a book about this called The Growth Mindset. She’s a professor at Stanford where they’ve done many studies where they’ve gone into schools in inner cities and work with the kids on mindset. Basically saying, if you teach a kid that you can do it, the kids ultimately start to believe it and they do.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    I think that’s what happened to me when I got into drug rehab. I was taught that I could do it and I thought, wow. And then I was in a situation where I had to do it and I did it and that was like, wow, that was pretty cool. I took the GED exam, and I passed. Like, wow, that feels good. It feels good to work hard at something and then succeed.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah, because I think when you’re using, and we’ll get into this in a second, when you’re using my experience is people come to expect you to be the drug addict that you are, and you start to expect that behavior from yourself because you have given over your power and you know that you’re not going to be able to overcome it. I knew at a certain point that, yes, my true values and my heroin values were not the same, but there was no way my true values were just going to overcome my heroin values. That just wasn’t going to happen, so I succumbed to this, this is who I am and the life that I’m leading, and this is what I do in order to get my drugs.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Talking about this makes me think about something that was said over and over when I was at Renaissance, which was the name of the drug program that I went to upstate in Ellenville, New York. And they had this philosophy, they called it the Renaissance Philosophy. And every day before every meal, somebody had to stand in front of the group, it was like a prayer, like you’re going to bless the food. Someone had to read the philosophy out loud to the group. So it stayed in your mind. And we took turns. Everybody had to at some point do this.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    And one of the things that stood out for me in that philosophy was if you treat people as they are, they will stay as they are. But if you treat them as if they were what they ought to be and could be, they will become as they ought to be and could be. That was the closing line of that philosophy, and it’s a growth mindset. It’s exactly what Carol Dweck wrote about in her book. So I’m always amazed at how much of my experience in drug rehab has been subsequently confirmed by the behavioral sciences and the neuroscientists.

    PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:23:04]

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Confirmed by the behavioral sciences and the neuroscientist research.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. How did you get into heroin? What did you know about drugs, and why did you decide to take that leap? Or was it just not that big of a deal back then?

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    It was a big deal, but I thought it was cool, using heroin. My whole image at the time, actually, and this is another thing I learned in drug treatment, was that I had this image about myself that protected me in a way. My true self, I couldn’t even tell you what that was at the time. If you asked me, “Who are you, Charles?” I couldn’t have told you who I am. But I had this image, and the image was, I was one of the cool kids. Right?

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Right.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    I addressed like the cool kids. I smoked cigarettes. I talked like the cool kids. I walked like the cool kids.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    You smoked Kools?

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    I smoked Kools, which was also cool. So when the drug heroin, when I became aware of this drug, and that initially we were sniffing it. But then I found out that some of the older guys were actually taking it intravenously.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    And the way I found out was, we would go to Harlem together, me and my friends, and the older guys in my neighborhood, Tommy, and Albie, and Tony. These guys were four or five years, six years maybe, ahead of us. And I looked up to these guys because they were cool kids. But now they were grown, kind of young cool.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    And we would go to Harlem and we would buy the heroin and they would say, “Wait here.” And we’d be waiting on 8th Avenue and 126th Street, and they would just run away from us and come back unbelievably, super high. And initially, it didn’t occur to me what was going on. But after, it didn’t take long to pick up like, “Wait a minute, these guys are doing something. They’re much higher than I’m getting.” And I wanted to know. And I started prodding and prodding, and they tried to hide it from me actually. And eventually, like most dope fiends, they give in. Right?

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Right.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    And eventually they start using it in front of us. And then as much as they said, “No, no, no.” And the first time I use it, it was with Tommy Harmon. And Tommy tried to tell me over, and over, and over, “Don’t do this. You don’t want this. You don’t.” And I just prodded, and eventually he just broke down and gave it and I got my first shot. And after that I was off to the races.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    This was like sex on steroids. And I was only 16. Imagine that, when you’re 16, and if you were having sex at 16, you know that’s all you want to do at that age. And for something to-

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    No comment.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Yeah I know Peter’s going to be listening, your father-

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Oh, he knows.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    To this conversation.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    There are no secrets between us. By 16, that was long over. But yes, theoretically, if that was my experience. But 16 yeah, I too started shooting heroin at 16.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Yeah, so it was, the feeling was just incredible. And initially that’s all it was. It was like, “Wow, this was cool.” People were afraid of needles. Right?

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Right.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Most people. Most of the kids that were smoking weed, and taking different kinds of pills, and using other drugs would be afraid to use a needle. To actually inject yourself with heroin, to me, that was the ultimate. That was the thing that separated-

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Oh, that was the cool?

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Me and my friends. This was the ultimate. And only a small group of us had the heart to do that.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    The heart. I love it. Is that what we had? The heart. Yeah, no, it’s true. I was terrified of needles. That was the thing though, I thought that I was, I never thought that I would end up being one of those people, whatever it was, because I was afraid of needles, or I would never … For me, there were a lot of conversations in my community about, “Don’t do drugs. Blah, blah, blah.” And my dad tried to sow seeds early around, “Just drink beer and smoke weed. Don’t blah, blah.” Like he was trying to like, “Don’t overdo it. Don’t do what my sister did, blah, blah, blah.” Because my parents were able to use recreationally.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    And so their experience was that you could keep your shit together and use recreationally and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So they kind of wanted to put that. And I thought that being afraid of needles would stop me, or would keep me from … I was like, “That’s not going to happen.” And it’s incredible the lines that you’ll cross.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I didn’t tell anyone. I didn’t think it was cool. I should say, it wasn’t cool, when I was doing it. Young, White girls were not doing heroin where I was. That was not a thing. I wasn’t telling anybody about it, but I definitely felt like I needed something that went much harder and faster than what I was getting. It was like that, “I need that, because this isn’t doing enough for me anymore.”

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Yeah, it’s amazing, when you think back on your teenage years and the things we told ourselves, it’s incredible. I feel like I was a, it’s almost like I was a different person.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Oh yeah.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    The things that I did.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Dream state.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    It was just crazy. I can remember when my mind cleared up in drug rehab, and it took months for me, I was in. I don’t understand, today people go into 21-day drug programs. What is that? I mean, I was-

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    It’s brutal.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    I was in drug treatment for, I was Upstate for almost 20 months.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yup.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    20 months Upstate. And then I had four months when I came out of Upstate into what they call, it was called a phase-out period where they slowly integrate you back into the community, and you still have meetings to go to. And eventually you look for a job, or go to school, or whatever it is you’re going to do. But it was a two-year experience from start to finish.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yup, me too. I went and I had, I went away for two years, and there was no way a 30-day situation was going to … I was just so beyond that. 30 days came from how long the military, and therefore insurance, would allow people to go away to get help. That’s where that model came from. It didn’t actually come from what is most effective. Not surprisingly, it was based on money and not on health.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    But yeah, so you went away to a therapeutic community after being arrested. A therapeutic community, was Renaissance House like Delancey Street? Is that, are you familiar with Delancey?

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    I don’t know Delancey Street, but the Renaissance Project sprung out from … The people who founded the Renaissance Project came from Daytop Village.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Okay, yeah.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Daytop Village-

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    And-

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Was the first, at least on the East Coast, I’m not sure about the West Coast.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I wonder if Delancey Street was West Coast.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    But I don’t remember Delancey Street. There was Samaritan House, which is actually still around. I believe Daytop is also still around. But those were the three big ones. Daytop Village was the biggest. And then you had Samaritan House and the Renaissance Project.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Stay tuned to hear more in just a moment.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I want to interrupt this episode to have a short little discussion about support groups, and there is no better person to talk to about this and my production coordinator, [Ashley-Joe 00:31:09] Brewer, AJB if you will. AJB, hi.

    Ashley-Joe Brewer:

    Hi.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Okay, you’re a big fan of Community. You attend Community support group meetings. Why? Why should people care?

    Ashley-Joe Brewer:

    I absolutely love Community, because it creates a community. And I know that sounds funny, but it truly provides a space for anyone and everyone, no matter what they are going through.

    Ashley-Joe Brewer:

    Just to give you an example, I invited or told a friend about Community because she was really struggling with binge eating disorder, and had gone to many different groups and felt shunned, or not accepted, or like it wasn’t a place for her. And at Community, she found a place. Because in Community meetings, we don’t care what the substance is, or what the struggle is. Everyone is accepted no matter where they are in life, no matter what they are recovering from. And I think that’s what’s beautiful about Community.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Oh, I love it. And yes, I 100% agree with you that the value is that you don’t have to know what your problem is, what your struggle is, what you want to give up, or not give up, or whether you’re abstinent or whether you’re stopping one … Whatever it is, you are welcome. And you are welcome in this place. And it’s a great place to discover the answers to all the questions that you’re looking for, in a community and have that support.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    And it’s free to anyone. You go to lionrock.life, and there is a tab with community meetings. There are different days, different times, different subjects. There’s even a cooking group called Community Table. There are so many different options. Something out there for everyone.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I highly recommend, maybe after you listen to this, if you are looking for more community in your life, more friends, more support, please, please go check out Community lionrock.life. Click that community tab.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Why do you think that experience … Okay, so for people who don’t know what a therapeutic community is, will you explain what that is and why you think that had such a profound effect on you?

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    That’s a, explain what it is. Oh my God. Ashley, it would take forever to explain this place. Oh Lord.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yes, you can-

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    It’s just-

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    The detail-

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    It’s behavior modification was one of the terms that they used, right?

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    It’s completely different from a 12-step program. And it was military in its orientation. I will say that. It was very regimented. The time you got up in the morning, the time you ate, the time you had groups to talk about things. Everyone had a job to do. It was actually run by the people who were in it, so I came in at the bottom of the ladder. And then gradually over time, by the time I left, I was at the position that they called senior coordinator, which means everything that happened from the time the day started until the time it ended was my responsibility. And I would just report to a staff person.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    And everyone below me was a drug addict in the program. It was set up in a way to give the addicts an experience that would enable us to develop discipline, responsibility, accountability, to understand what it actually would take to be a responsible citizen when you got out. And they didn’t hesitate to punish. When you stepped out of line, this is the thing that caused me to turn around. When I stepped out of line, the punishment was swift and severe.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Mm-hmm (affirmative), and public.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Wake up-

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    And my-

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    And public, yes.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    My experience was-

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    And public.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    It was all very public.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Yes. They humiliated you in front of everyone. And then they came, I would wake up at 6:00 in the morning. And at times, for days on end, not go to bed until 3:00 in the morning. And then wake up again at 6:00 in the morning, and then not go to bed until … I would fall asleep on my feet standing up, I was so exhausted at a point. And eventually, I just couldn’t take it anymore. And that’s when I just gave in and started following the rules, and eventually my brain started to rewire, because it was kind of cool following the rules, and then being rewarded for that.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yes. I was in a therapeutic community for a year and that was like, I could fake it for a month. I could fake follow the rules for a month or two here and say the right things, but not a year. And the experience of, I am very much, I like rewards. I do well with rewards, and I don’t like punishment. You adjust, you do.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    And it seems really intense. I remember my parents were like, “Oh my God, what is happening?” There were questionable things. There were things that were probably over the line and a little abusive. But it’s interesting, those people who I was with. Those are still my best friends today. They were in my wedding. And you bond with people in those places differently than I think I’ve ever bonded with anyone.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    It’s like a family really. When you first came up to Renaissance, it was on a hill. And when you got up to the top of this hill, then you would see this, it was an old resort that was donated by an investment banker named Seth Glickenhaus. He decided he was going to take this old resort, which they have many up in the Catskill mountains. That was a big thing.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    What was that? There was a TV show that talked, that basically showed how these resorts were, Marvelous Mrs. Maisel or something like that.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Maisel.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Right?

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    And they would go to this Upstate, in the Catskill mountains resorts. And Seth basically took one of these resorts and he converted it to each, he handed it over to Renaissance said, “You guys take it.” And he basically funded the whole thing until they were able to get going with what their own fundraising. And in the front, there was a sign when you got to it, it would say, “The Renaissance Family.” That was the sign, The Renaissance Family.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    And to this day, my friends from Renaissance, the relationship that I have with them are not like any relationship with anyone. The way we communicate, the way we relate, the level of authenticity, of openness, a willingness to be vulnerable, it’s just incredible. I had a conversation yesterday with a friend I hadn’t spoken to since we went our own separate ways. After we left the program, a lot of us lost touch, and I reconnected with them yesterday. Patsy, Patsy [Botarong 00:38:33], guys from The Bronx.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    This kid, he came to the drug program. He was like a bandit. He was like an armed robber. He was facing all kinds of crazy charges in Brooklyn Criminal Court. But back then the judges, because of this drug thing, the drug program thing, he got a break and they sent him up. And you would never think that this guy was a fricking bandit. He was like a Teddy bear. He got off drugs, he was like the sweetest guy.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Him and I were talking. It was just like, wow. And he’s celebrated 43 years today, it’s 43-year anniversary. He was there, he got the Renaissance three months before me, so we went through the whole thing together.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    That’s incredible.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Me, him, other friends. I was talking to Jerry. Jerry was a staff member, Jerry [Whittit 00:39:24]. He was like a football player from a New Rochelle. He was the star. And then he was trying out for the Canadian Football League I remember. And he became a mentor for me. And he was just so incredible. I leaned on him while I was there. And to this day, we’re still in touch. We talk, we’re on Facebook, we’re on … It’s just like nothing ever changed. We could go months without talking to each other, or even years, and then connect as if there was no break at all in our relationship.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yup. It’s incredible. And I went to a place called Gatehouse, and my friends from there are family, I mean literally. They’re invited to my siblings life events, it’s truly family. And it’s interesting, I’ve gotten phone calls from people I haven’t heard from in years. And I’ve had some, over the years, in our group, in our, what would be the equivalent of class or section for drug addicts, and we’ve had falling outs with people. And interestingly, I’ve always said, “Yeah, there’s falling outs in our group, but if any of those people called me up and needed me, like if something happened, they’re like family.” We may not talk all the time, or we may not be friends anymore, but we have a shared experience that is so deep that even if I didn’t like them, I would still show up if they needed me, because we’re family. It’s not something I can even explain.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I don’t have a lot of friends where that’s the case, but there are people on this planet who I don’t like anymore, and I would show up for them, because that’s the relationship that we had, that’s what we all, as that community built. And then I of course have other friends that super, super close to and more family. It’s just, I don’t know, it is … And I’ve been to a lot of rehabs, and I don’t have that relationship with other people in the other rehabs. That therapeutic community was a very specific, intense thing, that bonded us in a way that even other treatments, long-term treatments I’ve been to didn’t. It’s a really incredible, life-changing experience that …

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I didn’t stay sober after mine, but because I went through it, I knew where to go, who to call, what to do, when the time came for me that I wanted to be sober. And it was as a result of that experience, it was very transformational.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    It’s like the Hotel California.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Mm-hmm (affirmative).

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    You can check out, but you could never leave Ashley.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Nope.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Once they get you-

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yup, that’s it.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    It’s in you, right?

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah, it is. It’s a part of my experience, and it’s also part of my experience because of how old I was and what everyone else was doing. And I’ve shared this when, and we’ll talk about this, I shared this when I applied for schools, which was … My high school experience was that I was in these situations that no-one else, other than the people there would relate to.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    While everyone else was playing sports, and, learning things, and whatever it was, I didn’t do that stuff. I did this stuff. And so in many ways I was behind, educationally. I was very behind educationally, but I was ahead emotionally. And so when I was reintegrated back, and we’ll talk about this, when I was reintegrated back, first of all, coming from my family, I felt I had a lot of shame about where I was educationally. I didn’t graduate high school. No-one in my family didn’t have a master’s degree from an Ivy League school, no-one, like no-one.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    And so for me to have this other … Even my drug-addicted aunt had a master’s degree from Columbia. You know what I mean? It was really bad. And so I came out with a lot of shame, but what was interesting, and I did a lot of things to overcompensate for that, but what was interesting was how I didn’t relate to these other people who were academically ahead, because they were so emotionally behind, so emotionally stunted.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah, they had the book-smart, they had the knowledge, they have that. I see it, I see it all the time. The depth that they had was so shallow that I couldn’t make sense of, I admired these people, but I couldn’t connect with them.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    That is amazing, because I can say the exact same thing from my own experience. How much older were you? When you went back, obviously you had this, you must’ve been older than your average classmate, right?

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah, so I got sober at 19, and I had not graduated high school, and I was a piercer at a tattoo shop, and I start … And so I was doing high school, like basically the equivalency of a GED, but it was through a school. And I was doing it online, trying to get it, and I just … I started college, I started community college. I moved to Southern California, started community college and was into community college when I graduated online. I graduated high school after starting college. And I graduated some online school.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    And then so I started community college at 20, but it took me five years, year-round to finish my undergrad degree, because I was so behind. And because, you and I were talking about this before the recording, which was, I had to take two math classes that did not count for … You test in, right? I don’t know if you did this, but you test in, like where do you go. And you can start community college as long as you’re 18. You don’t have to have a high school diploma. So I was 19 or 20, whatever it was. And I tested into high level English, and I tested into remedial math. And so I had to take two classes that counted for credit in order to-

    PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:46:04]

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    And so I had to take two classes that counted for credit in order to get to a class, a math class counted for credit. So I had to do school year round for five years to get that fricking bachelor’s degree. And there were kids in those classes that they were way ahead of me and much younger.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Right. So I started when I was 21 and it took me five years as well. So I went through the exact same thing that you went through at community college. I started off with the arithmetic basic, I think that the classes were arithmetic, basic, reading introduction to writing, I mean, they would teach me how to use the dictionary, it was that bad and management, there was a management class. And I got three A’s and a B, right, I got three A’s and a B, and I got an A in the management class and the professor of the management class, he was also the chairman of the department for business administration so he took me and all of the students from that group, that first semester, that had an outstanding GPA and received an A in his class and we became the ones that he mentored, we were his special group. His name was John Christensen.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    And man, let me tell you, I never forget, after my first semester and he wanted to know what’s your plans. He probably asked all of the kids this right, that he brought into this club called Alpha Beta Gamma, it was a club in the National Business Honor Society. Alpha Beta Gamma, that was the name of it. We were the Delta club, right? So he would have a talk with each of us. He’d say, “What are your plans, Charles? What are you planning to do after this?” And I told him I was planning to go to what I thought was a reputable college in Westchester County. And I knew people who had gone to that college and seemed to me anyway, to have done quite well for themselves.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    And after I told him this, he looked at me and he said, “Why do you want to go to a shit school like that?” He says, “Forget about that college. You want to go to Wharton.” I never forget his words. He said, “You want to go to Wharton, but you can’t get any more B’s, only A’s and you’re going to have to take calculus.” Now I just finished arithmetic. I didn’t know what Wharton was. I had never heard of a place called Wharton, but eventually he explained it to me. He sent me down to meet Tommy Yellen. Tommy was his former student, 4.0 from the community college, right? 750 SATs, studying Japanese and finance and he was in Japan doing an insertion. I mean, this kid sounded like an astronaut to me. I was like, he’s got to be kidding me. I just finished the arithmetic. He’s talking about calculus. And this is crazy.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    But I went down to meet Tommy and in fact, I went with Tom, Tom was my buddy, Tom and I were close to age, Tom Madden, Irish kid and he had come out of the Marine Corps because he screwed up in high school and his father said, “You’re going to the Marines.” And he came out of the Marine Corps. So Tom was one year older than me. So we were close in age and we became study buddies and best friends. They called us salt and pepper, and I don’t look anything like pepper, but I was the blackest thing they had in the club, right? So they called us salt and pepper everywhere we went. And we studied together all the time. In fact, I studied at his home, he studied in my home. He lived in an apartment in Bronxville, right. I used to rob houses like around where he lived. It was kind of crazy for me because I was still close to that period of my life.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    But he went down to Wharton with me and we toured the campus with Tommy Yellen. And man, let me tell you, Ashley, I had never seen, I was like I was on a different planet walking through this campus, the University of Pennsylvania and the Wharton school, the Wharton school was being renovated and it wasn’t even open yet for classes. But we went in the classroom was like freaking mission control, man, at Nassau, the seats were all swively. And it was like an auditorium type setting. And they had an old booth from the New York stock exchange in this place. I was blowing, everywhere we want on the campus, there was nothing but smart people. I remember that thinking every kid looks smart, even the black kids look smart. I mean, this was to me like, holy, oh my God.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    I mean, this is, you understand, this is a whole new world for me. I was shortly after drug program. This was 1981. I graduated in 1980 from the drug program and I’m seeing all of this and that I just decided at that point, this is it. This is my destiny. And I focused all my energy. At the drug program they told me, they said, “Charles, if you could put the same amount of energy into doing something positive and productive that you put into using drugs, you could do anything you want.” And I took that. In fact even at the drug program I got this discipline, this ability.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    There was this one staff member, her name was Cindy and man, she drove me. This was like Navy Seals. I mean, to me, right, she drove me, her and this other staff member named Rodney, Rodney Folks. They would punish me sometimes for no reason. And I couldn’t understand it, man. I hated them. I hated them. But eventually I realized what they were doing. They were putting the pressure on me like they put on a Navy Seal so when the training is over and it’s time to go out on the battlefield, there’s nothing that can be thrown at you that you’re not ready for. So when I got to Wharton, I thought to myself I don’t care how smart these kids are they can’t outwork me.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Right. I totally relate to that. I remember thinking the same thing. These people, all these kids have been studying longer, they have all these things I don’t have, but they don’t know my secret weapon, which is, I’ll do whatever it takes to get to where I need to go, whatever it takes and I’m focused on it. And I remember getting the high school reading lists, the summer reading list from the private schools, you could look them up online when I was in community college and I would read all the books because I hadn’t read any of the books.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    And I grew up in a house where my dad would say, he would literally refer, like I learned so much Latin growing up because my parents both took Latin and would literally quiz us in the mornings. What’s the root word of blah-blah-blah. What’s the Latin word? When I was a kid, meanwhile, I get to this other place. So I know the difference between what educated and non-educated looks like, which makes it even more stark in my head. And so I just knew, I will read, I will do as much as I have to do in order to get there and to be where I need to be. And I’ll just work harder than these people. I don’t know what else to do. There’s nothing else, there’s no other way for me to get back where I thought I needed to be. And it totally, it prepares you. So you went to Wharton undergrad, and when you were there what did you study?

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Finance. Well, everybody did economics, right, so at Wharton undergrad the degree is a BSE, bachelor of science and economics. So everyone has to do-

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    They don’t offer a BA?

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Not at Wharton. So at Penn.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    At Penn, right.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    You would do a BA if you were in one of the other schools, but at Wharton, it was a bachelor of science and economics. So I did finance and that was because I went to find out how much money do the students who graduate make and I went to the career planning and placement office and finance was at the top of the list. So I decided, well, that’s it, I’m studying finance, right?

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    There you go. There you go.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    And I’m working on Wall Street. That is it baby. So that’s how I got to finance.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Did you know, when you got there, did you feel like a fish out of water? Did you talk about your history or any of the, find people who had experiences like you did or were you like, I’m not going to bring that up, that’s forever ago, just stay focused.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    So I learned at Renaissance that I had to talk about, I couldn’t hide my self totally. I wasn’t comfortable going around the way I am today just talking about my experience on drugs and I wouldn’t advise a person to do that when you’re fresh out of the drug program either because people look at you differently if you have 40 years of sobriety under your belt versus four months. I mean, it’s a difference. But I would share my story with individuals that I felt I could trust.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    So the first person was Lolis, Lolis Elie. This kid was, I mean, he wore the glasses, he looked like the smartest kid in the class. He spoke like the smartest kid in the class. He was so articulate. I couldn’t understand half of what he said, because my vocabulary was so weak, but I just admired this kid and I wanted to be able to speak like him. I remember having that feeling and I’m going to talk, I want be able to talk like Lolis because he would have these discussions with people. He had all of this knowledge from reading books all his life. And I didn’t read any books growing up as a kid, that wasn’t part of my home experience. No one read books in my, I don’t recall anybody, I didn’t know anyone who just read books for fun. You read a book because you had to in school. So this kid was like, his father was a famous civil rights attorney in New Orleans. He defended like the black panthers. He was like that kid.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    And he befriended me. He came up to me after the first class and it was a labor law class and at the end of the class, he came up, he introduced himself. And I remember he was talking about Malcolm X and the labor law. I’m sitting there and I’m listening and I’m like, what the hell does Malcolm X have to do with labor law? But he was making all these connections to what he knew above and beyond what was in the class. So when he introduced himself to me, I was like, I’m glad someone is stepping up. And he asked me where I came from and I explained to him. He said, “Okay, I’m going to introduce you to who you need to know.”

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Harold Haskins became a mentor for me. He ran what they call student support services, which is we call it the tutoring center because you could go there and get a tutor for any class and you didn’t have to pay for it. And Haskell was like, he was like the father figure type of individual. He was six foot six, he used to work with gangs in Philadelphia. He became famous for putting his finger in the barrel of a gun of a gang member that was preparing to go to war with a rival gang. And he was like, “You got to shoot me first.” But they knew him and they respected him. He was that guy, but he was a teddy bear. You understand.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah, yeah.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    So between Hask and Lolis, and then there were other people I would meet, I remember this young girl named Kim, Kim Woo. She grew up in the projects in St. Nick. I mean, this is where we used to go buy our heroin and she grew up in those projects. Right.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Wow. Wow.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    She’s like this freaking CEO of Columbia’s investment fund today. She just got that job this year.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Good for her man.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    There were kids like Kim and like Lolis that I was able to connect with and Hask, and I had all the support I needed because I needed that support. And then there were professors also that were very supportive that I would go to office hours.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I bet they were excited to have someone who really worked hard and wanted to be there, I bet that was exciting for them to have someone that had that different background.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    I got a B in one class that I was like trying to figure out, how did I get a B in this class? Because I was dizzy sitting in the classroom trying to follow the lecture. It was one of these, I believe it was monetary economics, ISLM curves. There were variables that they would use letters for that you would have to then do all these calculations. And they ran out of letters. They started using, because everything was an alpha or a beta.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I know exactly what you’re talking about.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    He ran out of them, the professor started making up symbols.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I know exactly what you’re talking about because I called my husband and I said, “I’m never going to pass business school. I think they’re using a Russian alphabet.”

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    It was crazy.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    It’s crazy. I’m so f’ed. I’m so f’ed.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    I mean I was dizzy. I didn’t understand a thing. The blackboards, there were like three of them, so you would sit in the chair, looking down on the professor, he was writing and talking and he would go through all three and he would go back to the first one, he would flip it up. It would slide up and then there was another blackboard underneath that one. And he would fill that up.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Right. Right. And you’re like, no, no, no, I need that. Yeah.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Then by the end it will be six blackboards filled up with stuff. And I would just try to get it all down on paper so I could figure it out later.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Oh man, I so relate to that.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    But me and him bonded so much in his after hours sessions that I went and I thanked him for his help and he told me, he says, “Charles, you know you got a B, but don’t show anyone your paper because I gave you the B, it was really a C, but I gave you the B because I felt you worked harder than anyone I know.” And he said, “You deserve to get bounced up.”

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I love it.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    So that C was the best C I ever got in my life. But he bounced it up to a B.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yep. And how did you decide, so, what you’re doing now is talking about heroin to Harvard, right. And Peter’s like, you can be heroin to Hopkins. I was like, thanks Dad. Thanks Dad. Number one, fan. So, how did you decide I’m going to go to HBS, Harvard Business School? Was that like, oh, well that’s what these other kids are doing, when did that become like a real option for you?

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Harvard Business School, my recollection is they came to the Wharton campus and they did a presentation for Wharton, I believe it was Wharton students primarily, but it was probably open to any undergrad at Penn, but they came to early recruiting and they did a presentation on the business school’s program. And they were trying to get the students interested. And they basically said, this is what we look for. And it hit me at that point that this was a real option. And I thought, wow, this is it. I decided then while I was still in undergrad, that was it.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    I remember talking to my homeboy, Scrooge, I remember telling him, I said, “Bro, I’m going to Harvard.” And I said, “Remember my words, Scrooge, remember.” Gary Crumpton, I said, “Remember my words, I’m going to Harvard one day.” I still remember I was walking down Washington Street, which was the block that we both grew up on. We both grew up in the same housing project. I remember it. And he was one of the people that I got into the drug program 10 years after me, 10 years, he was tired. And I went to talk to him. I said, “Hey, are you ready?” He said, “Yeah, I’m ready.” I got him in. And it was, went in, did his thing upstate came out, raised his little girl on his own. This was a single parent that was actually a father.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Wow. Wow.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    And his daughter ultimately graduated with a master’s degree and she’s doing extremely well. She’s a published author. Yeah.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Wow. Love that.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Yeah, Shalane. Yep, she still calls me Uncle Chucky.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Oh, that’s so cute. So you decide you’re going to Harvard. And so what was it like receiving that acceptance letter? Or were you like, no, I knew I was going?

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    I couldn’t imagine not going.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Right.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    And I didn’t apply to any other business school. They were either going to accept me or I was going to figure out why they didn’t and then I would have reapplied the following year. So once I made it up in my mind, at that point I just felt like anything is possible. And if I worked at it hard enough and I knew I ticked all the boxes, actually once they said this is what we look for, I just ticked all the boxes. So I knew Wall Street was, if I did that, if I got the job on Wall Street, then I would be prime candidate. So I got the job on Wall Street, international experience, if I did that, that would makes me more prime. So I took the job. I got the job at Chase that I would travel around the world doing risk analysis. And I had to do some other leadership thing. They wanted leadership. So I did leadership things.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Right, right, right. You just checked those boxes. Yep.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    I wrote my application. I went to see my buddy Lolis, who decided he didn’t want to go into business and he became a professional writer and I never forget, he looked at my application and he says, “Okay, so do you really want to do this?” I said, “Yeah.” He said, “Okay, well we can throw this in the trash. Let’s start all over again.” The beautiful thing about Lolis is he didn’t worry about hurting my feelings. He just told the truth. And I respected him for that. And I encouraged him. I said, “Just tell me the truth. Don’t worry about my feelings.” Although I got to a point where I said, “Bro, you could break it to me gently.”

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    And he helped me, we sat down, he was working for the Atlanta Constitution and Journal, the business section in Atlanta. And we sat down together and he helped me write that application to basically communicate the experience because I still struggled with my writing, I got the math down, but the writing was always a challenge. And we sent it in, they did call me for an interview because I had to explain, they wanted to talk to me about this heroin experience. So that was always, there was no way around it because I didn’t start back to college until I was 21 and then they had my high school transcript, which was a mess.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Right. Right, that you have to explain.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    I have to explain it. Yeah. And they seem to be comfortable. They sent me a letter saying I could do it. So I got accepted. And then I deferred for one year because I wanted to go back to Renaissance and do something. And I knew the people who ran it. And I said, “Hey, listen, man, I want to, is there something for me to do because I’d like to do something before I go.” Because after Harvard I know this is, I’m going to be busy after that with my career and so on and so forth. And they say, “Yeah, we have something for you.” So I deferred and I went and I worked for Renaissance, which was like some incredible experience, I had about eight months of my life to just commit to giving something back to the place and the people that saved my life.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    That’s awesome. And so you get to HBS and you get your section and your section in business school that you stay with them the whole time and so that’s when you met Peter.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    That’s correct, yep. We were section F.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Section F. Yes.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    That’s it.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I’m still in contact with many of the people who watched me grow up from section F. And you had an experience that you talk about where you lied about your heroin experience, which was a pivotal moment for you. Can you tell me about that?

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Yeah, absolutely. So first month at Harvard Business School, I’m so intimidated Ashley, even after the Wharton thing, this was just a whole nother level. At Wharton, it was just smart kids, at Harvard it was like smart, famous people. And your father was one of them, right. So everyone knew who were the people with names, family names, right? Peter Loeb, Lehman brothers, [inaudible 01:07:13] Loeb, that’s the guy. Philip, the Baron Philip Rothschild. I mean, Baron. We had a Baron in our class from France. I mean, this is the investment banking family, they own one of the top wine estates in Bordeaux. I mean, we had those kinds of people. So I’m sitting in the classroom and I’m so intimidated. I’m thinking, man, these people are so far over my head. They are so far ahead of me, the way they speak, I’m struggling to keep up with the workload in and they’re just like taking it like it’s no big deal, read the cases and go out and drink beer.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    So the first month we had a communications class and it was a four minute presentation that we had to do that would be recorded on any topic, but you couldn’t use any props. Applying the principles that we were learning about communications. So I decided to do mine on drugs. And that was easy for me to get statistical data from people in the drug program that I knew about the problem with drugs in America. Thought I could speak to this confidently. It’s a subject that I was comfortable with, but I didn’t make it personal. I didn’t talk about myself. This was just research that I was presenting on.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    So the professor decided she wanted to use my presentation as an example. Now, the funny thing is this, she talked about how I mastered the pause in my presentation. So I would say something and then I would pause and so she showed it to the class and she says, “Notice how Charles uses the power of the pause.” And I’m sitting and I’m watching this and listening and I’m thinking she has no idea. I was so nervous I couldn’t remember what I had to say. So I spoke slowly and I took my time. And the-

    PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [01:09:04]

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    I spoke slowly, and I took my time, and it allowed me to catch my memory, but it didn’t look that way. But when you’re using drugs and selling drugs on the street, you mask at also being able to hide your feelings when you’re nervous or afraid.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    That’s true.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    So I didn’t look that way, but I felt that way. My heart was racing. So after it was all over, Peter came up at the end of the class and complimented me. He said, “Charles, I’m just curious. Have you ever been on drugs or in a drug program?” Now, this is the first month, Ashley. I don’t know this. I know who he is, but I don’t know him. I don’t trust him. There are people that know my story, but those are people that I’m close to after I get to know them. And I’m thinking, “There’s no way I’m going to tell him and these people. They’re not going to know what my past is about.”

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    He probably should have lead with why he was asking. That could have helped.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    It could have helped a lot, because after I said, “No, why do you ask,” then he told me about his sister who was a heroin addict. And I was like, “Oh my God. This is crazy.” And he had nothing to hide. He felt no shame, no embarrassment. And that kind of hit me, too, like this is not something that people talk about to people they don’t really know. I wasn’t at that level. Once I got to know Lewis I could tell him my story, or Kim Liu, I could tell her my story, or I could get to know a person and I would share it with them, but not people I didn’t know. And I walked away from that. I couldn’t shake it. It was in my mind like, “Why did I lie? Why? Why did I lie? Why did I lie?”

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    For the rest of the two years there, every time I would see Peter, I would be reminded of this lie. And then I couldn’t say I lied, because no one wants to admit, “I’m a liar. You can’t believe anything I say.”

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I’m a drug addict and a liar.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Oh my God. So it wasn’t until the reunion five years later that I went to him, and I knew I was going to see him. And I knew I was going to tell him. I was like, “I got to get this off my chest here.” And sure enough, we shared a moment, and I asked him if he were… He couldn’t even remember.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Of course not.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    He had no memory of the communications class, or the video, nothing. And I’m thinking, “Man, I’m most stressed out about this for years. He can’t even remember what happened.” But he was so cool when I told him, and if he thanked me for sharing the story with him. And we had a long chat about the addiction in his family, and I’m almost sure at some point, he told me about you, as well, at one of those viewings, because every five years, we would see each other at the reunion. And I’m almost sure, because I remember him saying, “If you ever come to California, Charles, I’d like you to maybe give me a shout. Maybe you could sit down with Ashley and just have a chat with her.” Well, I never went to California at that point. I had no reason. I didn’t have any friends, any reason to go out there. So that’s why you never saw me in California. Otherwise, I would have met you at some point during your crazy years.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah, that would have been interesting. I wasn’t exactly open to feedback as you can imagine.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    I can imagine, actually.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    It’s interesting, and you and I have talked about, it’s interesting about perception. And perception is this really powerful thing, because I didn’t think that a person like me could ever go to an Ivy league school, that I would never make it. Because of my educational history and all of the things that have happened, I was like, “Yeah, that’s never going to happen for me. I’m never going to be able to do that.” And I think it’s really interesting how you’re intimidated of him, and we all think we have this imposter syndrome. We all think we don’t belong, because if we are like this, we don’t belong. And you, that’s your not belonging.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    When he told me about you, that you were on heroin and then you went to Harvard, I thought, “Oh, maybe there’s a world in which I could go to an ivy…” So your story for me was inspirational about what I was capable of doing, because my dad being able to do that meant jack shit to me, because I wasn’t the kid who went to the great private school. He to me was not relatable, but you were relatable. And to you, he was not relatable. And when you think about that, when you think about how we perceive ourselves, how we perceive others, that relate-ability right, like who we think is going to make a difference, or who we think is better than us, because I had the same feeling that all of those people are better than me.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    What we’re talking about is getting down to the heart of what it means to be human.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Right.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    And when we have these kinds of conversations and we get past that stereotype, say I had of Peter and that you have of Peter, and now I would’ve had the same stereotype of you like what could this girl… What could she learn from me?

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Right. That would make sense.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    So to hear that I was an inspiration for you, from the Lowe family, that’s like, “Wow, really? How’s that work?” But today, obviously I’m not surprised, because I’ve experienced a lot more, but at that time, I would have been surprised.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah, that would have been surprising, because what you did is relatable to me. What I did was I went to neighborhoods that I didn’t live in, for lack of a better term, that I didn’t live in, and that’s where I hung out, and I did drugs in those neighborhoods. I committed crimes in order to sustain my habit. I forewent education and experiences. I had the same experience, a possibly more privileged experience, but still the same type of experience. I didn’t have the experience of feeling like I was part of this family, this legacy. We lived on the Harvard Divinity school campus, and when I would hear about Lowe Boathouse or our name on the buildings, that was so intimidating for me because I saw myself as being born outside of that. I was born outside of it. It didn’t count. It didn’t apply to me because of all these things. It’s really about the human experience, and it’s this imposter syndrome that we have, that we think we all have.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I was in Baltimore, and I’m finishing my MBA at Johns Hopkins. And as in Baltimore, most of my classmates are doctors. And I had all of that stuff all over again, where I went into this classroom, and I’m like, “Oh my God.” The CMO of the biggest allergy clinic in America, and my classmates are just the most accomplished human beings I have ever met. And when you talk to people, whether that’s people in the project or people in this classroom, what I found was there’s pieces of everyone that I can relate to.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    I can relate to everybody’s humanity, and everybody is afraid. Everybody has a piece of them that is afraid of being judged or not good enough; everyone, all of us, even the people that I’m looking at going, “Oh my God.” They have a piece of them that feels like they’re not good enough. And I think that I didn’t know that. I didn’t know that these people, who I was apparently a part of, no idea, these people, I didn’t know that they had insecurities too, or they worried about whether or not they were good enough, or all those things. And I think a lot of that stuff for me drove me feeling different, and drove the addiction, because I was further and further and further away from what it was I was supposed to be because I grew up with knowing I was supposed to be something.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    You were talking about that. We were talking about that in the beginning with the little kids. I grew up being told I was special, I was smart, and I was going to be something, and that I could do whatever I wanted. And I was told that over and over and over again. And so I was like, “Well shit, I’m not going to live up to that. I can’t do it. What if I can’t do it? What if I can’t be something? What if I can’t do it all? What if I can’t live up to that?” And so for me, it was a burden. It felt like a burden, because I didn’t think I could do it.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    That’s amazing. So, the expectations were so high for you. It caused you to feel like you can’t reach that bar.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    How could you? How do you surpass that? what do you do that’s bigger than that, than what everyone else has done?

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    My situation was kind of the opposite. Nobody thought I could. But what’s interesting is that that’s what drove me. So I can’t imagine actually being in your circumstances where everybody had all these high expectations. Now, don’t get me wrong. My parents, they hoped for the best, but neither one of them were graduates from college. I remember when I decided I wanted to go to Wharton, my mother was a secretary in the district attorney’s office in the county court up in Westchester, in White Plains. And she told some of her people, colleagues, they were some of the attorneys up there, the prosecutors that her son came home and said he wanted to go to Wharton.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    And she said, they all kind of told her that she should talk to me, because that probably wasn’t a realistic goal. And I remember when she spoke to me. She says, “Chuckie, you might want to consider other schools,” and she mentioned a few schools that were in the eyes of the people she worked with that was more realistic for me. And she meant well. She was trying to help. And I remember distinctly, I told her, I said, “Bruh,” I says, “There is no other school. So if you don’t have anything positive to say about this, then I would appreciate it. If you just don’t say anything at all, because I’m going to Wharton.” And then I remember, I worked at Abraham and Strauss. I was a sales rep, which was later acquired by Macy’s.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    And I remember reading the Wall Street Journal on the train one day going home from White Plains back to Tuckahoe. And some of the managers, was after the store closed, some of the managers that worked in the store we’re on the same train in the same car. And one of them noticed I was reading the Wall Street Journal, and asked me, “What’s going on? Why are you reading the journal?” So I told him. I says, “Well, I’m at the community college now, and my professor says I need to learn how to read the journal, especially if I want to go to Wharton, which is my plan.” And I never forget, he looked at me and he said, “Wharton? Did you say Wharton?” I said, “Yes.” And then he turned to the friends, and he said, “This kid thinks he’s going to Wharton.”

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    And they said, “What?” And they all started laughing. They thought this was the biggest joke that this kid thinks he’s going to Wharton. That still stands out in my mind.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    That’s so intense.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    So that just kind of pushed me even more, because I just felt like, “Okay, I’m going to show these people, then. I’m going to show all the doubters, all the naysayers. When I get to Wharton, and when I get there, I’m going to come back to Abraham and Strauss, and I’m going to go shopping. And I’m going to say hello to all of the people that I know. And they all going to say, ‘Wow, how’s it going at Wharton?'”

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yep. That’s amazing. And so what has your life looked like as a person in recovery and having shown yourself that you could do all these things? What have you done since then?

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Most of my work today is through business schools and executive education. So Henley Business School, which is a London-based business school that has a campus in South Africa, I do quite a bit of work with them. I do a little bit with Duke Corporate Education, which is a separate wing of Duke University, and some of the local schools down here, as well. And then of course, I do my own consulting and coaching, executive coaching. A big part of the work that I do is to really help people, leaders in organizations develop their stories. So I’ll tell my story, what I call my heroine to harvest story, and then my question is what is your story, and what does that story mean to you? So the same way you talk about how you always felt like there was an advantage that you had over the people that you went to school with in terms of your emotional depth that they were lacking, because they didn’t have that experience that you had going through drug rehab.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    And I often felt the same way, as well. It was a lot easier for me to speak to my feelings, to express my feelings, to be authentic, if you will, and to speak about my past experiences. And what I found is that people will often hide those experiences. So the same way I lied to Peter, people at Peter’s level lie to everybody around them, as well. So everybody has an experience that they don’t want people to know about. And a big part of the Authentic Leadership program at Harvard Business School is helping leaders to take those crucible moments, what they call crucible moments in their lives and make sense out of them, because it’s not what happened that is the story. It’s what you learned from what happened, is how what happened made you a better person. So when you talk about your emotional depth, that’s the advantage that comes from the drug experiences and getting off the drugs. And I had the same experience.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    So I take that, and I use that experience in order to create experiences for people that I coach, for people that I work with in executive education programs to be able to basically do what we did. I remember when I used to go to Renaissance before they closed down and talk with the people who were in treatment there, and I would share my story and engage them and try to inspire them. And they would ask me, “So what do you do, Charles?” And I says, “Well,” to simplify it, I say, “I do Renaissance in six days.” So I have a program that I’ve developed that will unfold over a period of months in six days. And they would say, “Really? Can you help me in six days so I can get out of this place?”

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Totally. I would’ve said the same thing.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    But that’s it. Everything I learned about emotional intelligence, and they didn’t call it that, but that’s what it was; the ability to identify and control your emotional responses to situations, the discipline that we had to develop to get through that. I teach people how to do that, how to develop healthy relationships, the importance of listening to people. So when we were in groups and when we were talking about our experience, you also had to listen and zoom in on other people’s experiences. So listening became an important part of that.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    So the things that I learned going through this experience, that being on heroin and getting to Harvard, I share those lessons in the work that I do with people. So I have a masterclass. I call it the Heroin to Harvard masterclass, and it’s tight. It’s focused.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    And how did you get to Johannesburg?

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    And I was a student at Harvard, I made friends. I took a class, actually, at the Kennedy school in my second year on the history of race and politics in South Africa. So I was interested in what was going on during that apartheid period. I had try to make my contribution to heighten people’s awareness. Even as a student at Harvard, I was doing with things around the anti-apartheid movement. And some of my friends that I made from South Africa invited me come down and visit and work on a project in Zululand. There was no money attached to it, but I knew I didn’t want to go back to Wall Street. And I was looking for something, which I did not know what the something was. So when I was offered this opportunity, I decided to go for it and then see what happens.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    And I went to Zululand and everything. I just fell in love with the place and the people, and I decided, “Wow, this could be home.” Of all the places I had been in the world, actually all over Africa, Asia, Middle East, South America, you name it, Caribbean, there was no place that I felt that was home the way I did when I came to South Africa. I couldn’t move at the time, but I was able to make that decision that this is my next vision. And fortunately, the opportunity came and I was able to capitalize on that, and ultimately I moved.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    A couple of years after I got here, I started doing the work that I do. Initially, it was around diversity, because obviously that was an issue after apartheid. Imagine what that was like trying to bring white and black South Africans together after apartheid, I mean immediately after apartheid. So this was crazy, but I was able to come in and create some programs, and facilitate some programs that worked like a charm. And you know what? Oftentimes, it was getting people to open up the same way we had to open up when we were in drug programs. So the same way the barriers broke down between, say, black people or white people, because the program I went in, it was mixed. So there was no black program or white program. We were all thrown in together and from different worlds, and there were racial issues in the ’70s if you recall. This was a ’60s, ’70s civil rights era, black power movement. There was always a racial issue.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    And when we got into this drug program, it’s not like we all of a sudden didn’t see race, but it didn’t take long when we began to reveal our true selves to each other, when we began to put the egos and the images to the side, and then we just connected. It was incredible. And literally, we were like brothers and sisters.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    So I took that experience to South Africa, and it was always amazing when people started to share their narratives and their stories, whether it was a black South African talking about their experience on one side of apartheid, and the white South Africa on the other side of apartheid, and they’re both together and sharing those experiences. The barriers between them would melt away every single time, and the humanity would then take over.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Yeah. It’s incredible. I love South Africa. I love South Africa. If it weren’t so freaking far away from my family… My husband and I, we went to spend time in Cape Town and, oh my gosh, just the heart of the people, too, just all of it. I don’t know, there’s something about it. It’s magical.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Yep, it’s my favorite place on the planet Earth.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    So people can find you on HeroinToHarvard.com.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    That’s correct, yes.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Okay. And you’re doing masterclass. I saw you have a bunch of different coaches and masterclasses on Heroin to Harvard. You have other different types of executive coaching on your site.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    Yes, that’s correct. Yep.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Awesome, awesome. Well, thank you so, so much for coming on. I really, really appreciate it. It’s been super fun.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    It’s been a real pleasure, Ashley.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Okay. Take care.

    Charles Henderson Jr:

    All right. Bye.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    Bye.

    Ashley Loeb Blassingame:

    This podcast is sponsored by lionrock.life. Lionrock.life is a recovery community offering free online support group meetings, useful recovery information and entertainment. Visit www.lionrock.life to view the meeting schedule and find additional resources. Find the joy in recovery at lionrock.life.

    PART 4 OF 4 ENDS [01:31:17]

    Ashley Jo Brewer

    Ashley Avatar

    Ashley Jo is one of the producers of The Courage to Change: A Recovery Podcast team. With over a decade of experience working with C-level executives and directing corporate training events, she brings extensive production experience to Lionrock. In early 2020, she made a significant career change and stepped into the realm of podcasting.

    Her recovery experience includes substance abuse, codependency, grief and loss, and sexual assault and trauma. Ashley Jo enjoys supporting others in recovery by connecting with people and being a leader. She shared her story in Season 3, Episode 92 of The Courage to Change.